Episode 92: The Erosion of Morality

[music]

>> Welcome to Wisdom from the Aerial View,

the podcast for those who seek to find

wisdom,

truth,

>> [music]

>> justice, the American way, meaning and

purpose in their lives. Hello Dr. Klein,

how are you? Have you found truth,

justice, and the American way?

>> You know, it's funny you should say

that. Hello to you, Enid. Um

I loved Superman when I was a kid. Loved

it. So, I mean, truth, justice, and

American way, I mean, come on. That

That was like my theme song. So,

>> It was an amazing couple of words,

wasn't it? And And

>> Oh, fantastic, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Right. Yeah.

>> You know, it's interesting you wanted

today to talk about Cornell.

And interestingly enough, you and I both

went to college in the state of New

York. We both did. We did not go to

Cornell.

But, we both went to school in the state

of New York. And I thought, well, why in

God's name does he want to talk about

Cornell? And I thought, well,

for a good reason. And so,

I found an opinion piece in the New York

Times that I think is really apropos of

this whole conversation, and I think a

good

jumping-off point.

It was written by David French.

The title was, "Where was the courage at

Cornell?" Let me read a little bit about

it. He talked about what happened there.

And then he goes on to say, "Marital sex

can be every bit as abusive and

exploitative as an encounter in a frat

house.

Instead of consent, I suggest a

different standard. One that applies not

just to sex in marriage, and not just to

sex alone,

but to all of our human interactions.

Let's talk about care.

In other words, we should constantly ask

ourselves, 'If I cared for this person,

what would I do?'

Even if an obviously drunk or high

person is asking you for sex, and even

if you're powerfully attracted to that

person, if you truly cared for that

person, would you initiate or engage in

an encounter that any sentient person

knows might be deeply regretted the next

morning,

the next day,

or the next week?

It can take an immense amount of courage

to actually care enough about another

human being to intervene, especially if

a person you don't know needs protection

from people you do know.

This month, just as details about the

Cornell case seem to be hitting the news

cycle every day,

I looked at the My Lai Massacre

during the Vietnam War.

The My Lai Massacre was one of the worst

episodes in American military history.

American soldiers in Vietnam went on a

killing spree, murdering hundreds of

innocent civilians. Obviously, the

massacre was far more extreme than

anything that happened at the Cornell

frat house. But, I bring it up for a

simple reason.

To introduce you to a man named Hugh

Thompson.

Thompson is an American hero. He was the

Army helicopter pilot who saw the

massacres from the air, immediately

radioed an alarm, and landed his

aircraft, placing it between his own

brothers in arms and a small group of

innocent civilians they were pursuing.

He even ordered his crew to open fire on

American soldiers if they tried to kill

the people he was protecting.

He cared for innocent people he did not

know, and probably would never know,

and the rejection and scorn of his own

brotherhood to save their lives.

In the process, he also showed care for

his brothers in arms. He stopped them

from continuing to commit the most

heinous of crimes.

Think about how much less courage it

would have taken to act that night at

Cornell. Then consider again

that no one intervened.

Discussion?

>> Uh well,

I think this time you should start.

>> Okay, I will.

Because courage has been something that

I have been talking about in my

profession

for 40 years.

I think we need more courage in

everything we do. I think we If we had

courage, we could end hunger.

And I think if we had courage, we could

end domestic violence. And I think if we

had courage, what went on Cornell never

would have happened.

I love the notion that we need to talk

more about courage and the courage to

care.

>> Okay, I so I noticed you chose the word

courage. So, why why do you say courage?

When you say Okay, let's give an example

of something you know about that before

you get back to Cornell for a second.

Um cuz I actually was passing a

billboard today, and it was about

hunger. And of course, first thing I

thought was about was you. Um

So, when you say we need courage to end

hunger, explain what you mean.

>> Well, I think that we have a lot of

people in the world who are obviously

face the threat of hunger or are in fact

food insecure.

And we need to just figure out

collectively, what do we do about it?

Are we content to let people in this

country

go hungry? I think not. But we have to

have the courage of our convictions. It

doesn't mean necessarily that we need

more government funding, although we do.

It doesn't mean necessarily that that

every that there is a solution that one

person has that somebody doesn't. It

means if we have the courage to all sit

down

and not worry about is that going to put

my nonprofit out of business?

But we need the courage to find the

answers, and the answers are there.

Hunger, the solution to the faces us

every day in the mirror. It's us.

We can solve it. We just have to do it.

That's why I think we need courage.

Courage to care. Care enough to find the

solutions.

>> Well, it's interesting you chose the

word courage because I you know, I'm I'm

always interested in in your view of

these things.

You know, it wouldn't have been the word

that it would have come to my mind.

Um

Um I I I'm not sure what the word would

be cuz because I can't think of a one

and but the idea that we have what

you're saying is that we uh

we are honest with ourselves that we

recognize what's happening and we have

the strength to do and determination to

do the right thing. So, our courage is a

perfectly good word. It's fine. But I I

think that's so true. You know, just do

me a favor, Enid, cuz people listen to

this

this podcast weeks or months and maybe

eventually years later. So, let's ex-

explain really quickly what happened at

Cornell and why this is in the news and

and why it's a big issue. If you don't

mind.

>> Yeah, sure. It was a gal who for

whatever reason decided to to drink a

lot, to imbibe too much and um

I guess had an invitation to go back to

this fraternity house and did so

knowingly.

Uh whether she did she did some

ketamine. I don't know if she did it

before she got there or while she was

there. I don't even know why she did it.

That's pro- problematic to me.

Um so, she's got some fault here.

So, she's not

um

>> Let's just lay out the facts first

before you determine who's wrong and

who's right.

>> Well, I don't know if that These are the

facts as I know them. That what I

That's what I read. I only know what I

read.

>> Yeah.

>> And so do you. You weren't there.

>> No, no, no. I'm just I agree with you.

I'm just saying just so we so people who

listen to this distant from today from

from the now will know what we're

talking about. So, these and then she

goes and when and she ends up getting

gang raped by a a bunch of guys.

>> by by at least seven seven men seven

four men.

And reported it suppo- and um

they did nothing. They swept it under

the rug.

And this is not the only time that this

has happened. As a matter of fact, last

night on the news I saw a report that

there was a rape at the

I guess it was in a dorm off campus at

the University of Chicago.

It's not right. It's not good. And it's

got to stop. We have to have the courage

to say, "Wait a minute." Now, Cornell

has just imposed a

no parties on campus for the rest at

frat houses for the rest of the year.

Whoop-de-do.

>> [laughter]

>> Whoop-de-do.

I saw that. So, you know, to me this is

I I'm sure I've never told you this and

I've probably never told anybody this,

but

you know, I you know, I I I abhor

violence, any kind of violence. And for

some reason, for as long as I can

remember, well back into my

maybe even post late adolescence,

certainly early adulthood,

I always thought rape was one of the

most heinous crimes that could be

committed. And I'm a guy.

I'm not a woman.

>> Mhm.

>> And yet something about it just

And it wasn't like I knew anybody or

anybody in my family, there's nothing

like that. It just was

Oh my god, how could you do this to to

somebody, right? And I've always felt

that way. And I don't do not know where

it came from other than my

overall sense that any kind of violence

is repugnant and this is a particularly

repugnant type of violence against women

in this case.

And so, for me, I I I don't I I can

never understand it. I don't really um

there's no condoning it. And I

And the reason I wanted to talk about

this

uh was because it tells us a lot about

our society and about what it is to be

human.

So,

I called one of my old oldest friends

who was a fraternity brother of mine,

cuz I was in a fraternity, our

fraternity we had a we had a

we had a we were in a fraternity for

really

after our second I think after our

second year uh

it was clear the fraternity was going to

fold in the in the next year. And so,

one of the guys put a dotted line a lot

on the building and said, "Fold along

dotted line. It was a a brick building.

It was very funny, right? So, but so I

really only had a a major fraternity

experience

total for 3 years. Really it was the

first 2 years.

Now, let me tell you about my

fraternity. Uh we generally had either

the highest grade point average on

campus or the second highest.

Uh we we were okay in sports. We weren't

the best cuz we weren't a bunch of

jocks.

Um

we had parties and always had a lot of

fun.

Nobody nothing like this

would ever get come close to happening.

And if somebody in the fraternity, if

some guy

did something like this and we became

aware of it,

uh or or even a group of guys,

many would have intervened and stopped

it. Not they wouldn't have turned their

other the other turned the blind eye.

They would have stopped it. Right? So,

they would have come in, grabbed people

by the collar, thrown them out of the

room, got the girl dressed, walked her

home,

took her to the emergency room if they

needed to.

That's who these That's who my

fraternity brothers were. These were the

you know, they were

and I'm still friendly with a bunch

from. These were first-rate solid

people. They wanted to have all kinds of

ex-successful careers either in politics

or business or law or medicine. You

know, this was a highly educated group

of people. Um

and you know, yes, we were New York

State. We weren't Cornell. We were we

were I would say, you know, academically

probably one level down from from the

Ivy Leagues, but you know, a good

school. Very good school, but nobody

would have allowed this to happen in my

fraternity. It would never have

happened. And I talked to my fraternity

brother about it and I asked him for I

didn't want to pre you know, pre um

prejudge what he was going to say and I

just said, "What do you think would have

happened if this happened at our

fraternity?" And he said, "Zero chance.

Zero zero zero. I can name 15 people who

would have jumped in and stopped it,

right?"

And that's So, the point is it's not the

fraternities that's the problem. I

remember I I was I you and I both

watched Bill Maher and this past Friday

night he went on about this and he

really focused a lot on fraternities and

how they were terrible and we should ban

fraternities.

And I thought that's not you know and I

like Bill Maher. I respect him a lot but

he missed the target on this one in my

view. It's not fraternities, it's people

acting badly. It's not having like you

said the courage to do the right thing.

It's not hard to know what to do the

right thing. These guys are 18 to 22

whatever. Come on. They know it's wrong.

It might be fun

but it's wrong and at some point

>> that but Ivy League college, you know,

come

>> It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

Smart We know lots of smart You and I

between us we know a ton of Ivy League

people and some of them are just flat

out stupid, right? So

>> question about that.

>> So I don't think Ivy League thing

doesn't mean a thing to me, right? It

just means that these people that they

have they've lost Somebody didn't teach

them the right way or they've lost their

way or they took a shortcut thinking I

mean in life meaning it doesn't matter

what happens to other people it's just

me which is of course the antithesis of

what we talk about on this podcast. So

it's not fraternities that there's when

when this happens in a society there is

an there is an there is a something is

fundamentally wrong in the society in

the way we're rearing our children, in

the way we're educating our children so

that you can end up with Okay, you can

end up with one person like this but you

shouldn't end up with seven people in

the same fraternity house like this.

It's not the fraternity, it's the

people, right? So

>> Well I'm not I'm a It was seven people

who raped her but it was like 70 did

nothing.

>> Right. Fine. I I agree with you. 100%

agree with you, right? 70 raped her and

70 people sat around doing nothing.

Whatever the number is I don't know. It

doesn't matter what the number is that

they all or almost all of them should

have My point was if one of them is is

is it is

>> No, they're all guilty. That's right.

>> They're all They're all guilty in the

sense that they're all complicit in the

sense that that they

the majority of them or almost all of

them knew what they were doing was

wrong, right? And they allowed it to

happen. So I think your your statement

of courage is right. But for for my

group, it wouldn't have taken a lot of

courage. People would have just said,

"You can't do this. What's the matter

with you?" And we would have grabbed the

you know, we would have grabbed whoever

was involved by the collar and thrown

them out of the room. I mean, that's

just what would have happened. This is

why this group with Bill Maher is

thought of as attorneys. We have a

problem in our society. And I'll tell

you something. So, I don't you know,

like I said, I'm I'm a fan of Bill

Maher, but

his language doesn't help. His promotion

of drugs doesn't help. These things you

can't you have to be consistent. We

either have a standard or we don't. So,

the fact that he thinks that smoking pot

or whatever you know, every day is just

fine, you know, and whatever he thinks,

but this is wrong.

You just have to have a standard saying,

"Okay, there we're going to establish

certain standards in a society, right?"

We can't say, "Well, we'll let we'll let

ourselves loose in this arena, but we

can't in this arena." It's It's very

hard for people to do that. So, once we

live in a society now, and I know I'm

going to sound like the old guy who

says, "Get off my lawn." But I'm just an

observer. And this is a perfect example.

You know, I I don't want to I'm not the

kind of person who says, "See, I told

you so." But if this is what it's

telling you, this example is telling you

there's something fundamentally wrong in

our society. That this can happen, like

you said, in an Ivy League school. These

kids are all highly educated. They

probably all come from very, you know,

uh

mostly probably affluent or fairly

affluent backgrounds. You know, they

don't have to be super rich, but they

all got into Cornell and they're in this

fraternity and they're all doing their

families are probably probably none of

them are food uh insecure. You know,

they probably had went to good high

schools, etc., etc. So, that tells you

there's something fundamentally wrong.

So, in our So, when we say, "This is

everything's okay." Or almost

everything's okay. "This is your truth."

I love that. "This is your truth." Or,

"You know, who am I to tell who you to

tell me how to behave?" When you When

that happens in a society, you got a

problem. Because then it's just opinion.

So, you could say, "So, those seven guys

or those 70 guys as say, 'Well, that's

your opinion. Who Who are you to tell us

how to live? Why are you right? You do

this, you do that, you take advantage of

people in business, you know, you lie in

as a politician, you know, what you're a

lawyer, you you know, you

you know, you can you can point fingers

at everybody. If you're not behaving

well in any part of society, it's a

problem, right? And so

this is the the point I'm trying to get

to is that we shouldn't be stunned when

stuff like this happens. It's we should

be introspective and say, "Okay, what

are we doing wrong? What's wrong in our

society?" So, I'll tell you

uh

with that

the idea that everything is okay is a

problem. If you do not You've heard me

say this a million times. If you do not

agree on mission on purpose, if we don't

agree on why we're here, then we will

not agree on a set of standards and a

set of rules and regulations by which to

live. It will become your opinion versus

my opinion. That's the problem. So,

their opinion might be

that's fine or the my me me lie uh a

massacre or what happens in Nigeria with

with, you know, the the killing the

kidnapping killing the girls or what

happens in many places in the Middle

East to women and to gay people or

what happens to Jews around the world or

black people, you know, once you say

there's no there's no absolute sets of

standards, then who's who gets to

choose, you know? If a if a if a uh

if a uh Islamic fundamentalist says, you

know, my Allah tells me that if you're

an infidel, if you're not if you don't

follow our particular brand of Islam,

I'm supposed to kill you, right? The

according to according to them, they're

just following what they believe is the

rule. If we don't agree on a on a

purpose, a common purpose, if we don't

agree agree on why we're here, we will

not agree on a set of rules and

regulations by which to live and we end

up with this. This is the so people say,

"Oh, you're blowing this out of

proportion." I'm not blowing this out of

proportion. It's why people shoot kids

in high schools. It's why people shoot

people health care executives the back

cuz they don't agree with their

policies. It's why somebody shot shot

Charlie Kirk cuz they they didn't like

what he said or they thought he was

divisive or whatever it was.

They say, "Well, that's perfectly fine.

You know,

but but if we don't if we don't say,

'No, no, all killing is wrong.' then you

and not some killing is right then you

end up with it. If we say some behavior

if we don't have a set of standards by

which we agree to leave live then, you

know, 70 guys from a attorney house and

watching seven guys rape a girl, that's

just opinion, you know, big deal, right?

That's what I'm getting at. There's an

underlying problem and the answer is not

to ban fraternities, it's to be

introspective as a society to see what

are we doing wrong?

>> A couple of things.

Interestingly enough, the president of

Cornell, Kotlikoff is his name,

admitted that he knew about it. He

admitted it.

So, you talk about complicit. Mhm. He,

too, is complicit. I tell you an

interesting story. When I was in

college, also in a college in the state

of New York,

uh

college that I love very dearly,

many, many years ago,

there was an incident a hazing incident.

And by the way, hazing is is egregious

as anything else.

A hazing incident where they they drank

whatever

to excess and the kid died.

>> Not the first time.

>> my university do?

They banned

fraternities on campus. There were no

more fraternities at my college. And to

this day, there are no fraternities.

My opinion is that is wrong. I agree

with you. I don't think banning

fraternities does solves anything. The

only thing it does is, to my mind, my

opinion,

it says to people there's no more

community. To me, a fraternity or

sorority is a community. It's where

people get together make their like-mi

If it's an athletes

fraternity, if it's a religious

fraternity, if it's Uh, whatever

fraternity, hopefully it's a little bit

everything, that's where people get to

commune with one another. And so when

you ban that, you have banned a sense of

community. And what do we do then? What

what replaces it on many college

campuses, including my own? Sports.

So there's the people the football team

gets together and the softball team. But

then there are people on campus who are

not athletes. Where is their community?

So I think banning fraternities and

banning sororities is a bad idea. I

don't like it. I have never liked it.

And I agree with you that banning

Cornell's fraternities is not the

answer. It is not the answer. I'm not

sure what the answer is, but it goes to

the top. The president of that

university knew it and did nothing.

>> Well, I'm less concerned with the

president of the university doing

nothing. That's up to Cornell and a

board of a board of directors board of

Not board of directors, board of

president

>> Board of trustees.

>> Board of trustees, thank you. Yes, board

of trustees, thank you. [laughter]

No, no, I'm let me just finish why. You

don't have to agree, but let me just

finish why.

I'm not I'm not defending it. I'm just

saying that's that's a little that's a

nothing burger compared to the problem.

Why why are these kids why do these men

think it's okay to do this? It is a

fundamental issue here that goes way

past the president of the university,

the board of trustees, or anybody.

There's something that they somehow in

their head they decided this is okay. So

you know, did we we've lost in some ways

we lost our way. It's the same it's the

same mentality as shooting somebody in

the back cuz you don't agree with them.

It's the same idea that okay, I get to

decide what's right and wrong. No, if

you do that, if everybody has their own

definition when people say it's my

truth, that makes me laugh. You know,

cuz I would image of God sitting up in

heaven saying, "Really? Okay, watch

this." Right? This is what we talk about

karma. To me karma is God saying, "Okay,

you did that? Uh,

you know, wait 5 minutes or 5 years or

50 years, you know, you let's see how

that worked out, right? It's that we if

you don't agree on a set of standards,

we end up with this behavior. So,

it is

in no world that I want to live in is it

okay for seven guys to have sex with a

girl

whether she,

you know, unless she's, you know, this

is a porno film. I mean, otherwise it

shouldn't be happening. I don't happen

to like that either, but that's that's

not up to me. That's these are voluntary

people, adults doing what they want to

do, fine, you know, but otherwise in

what world do you think that's okay? To

me, as I said to you, I knew this was

wrong when I was an adolescent. It was I

I didn't need somebody I didn't need a

public service enhancement. I just knew

this is a really bad thing and I would

never do it, right? In fact, I'll tell

you something. If a girl, if when I was

younger,

let's just go make it super simple,

right? Super Let's say when I was a

teenager or something, you know, I tried

to kiss a girl, you know, we went out,

right? And she didn't want me to kiss

her. So, what would I have done? Would I

force myself on her? No, I would have

run with my tail between my legs being

the most embarrassed I've ever been in

my life, right? So,

>> did it?

>> Uh

I don't think it did happen, actually.

>> that story once.

>> Yeah, but that's a different one. No,

but my you my point My point is that

you know, forcing yourself on somebody

to me was never something that

would be even in my mind as acceptable.

It's clearly not acceptable. So, how

come that as a teenager

I knew this intrinsically and these guys

at Cornell didn't? Come on, there's

something fundamentally wrong with the

way that we're raising our kids, the way

we're teaching our society, that and it

comes down to me that we have this idea

that everything's okay, everybody has

their own truth, there are no absolute

standards. Look, this is why God, you

know,

I don't want to this is a touchy

subject, but even whether God exists or

not we need a God. We need a concept cuz

that's at least it sets an absolute

standard. Thou shalt not kill. Thou

shalt not commit adultery. Thou shall

not covet thy neighbor's blah blah, you

know.

So, great. That's an absolute set of

rules. We don't We don't We're not going

to We don't have to discuss it. So, when

we grew up, there were some absolute

rules. Those were Those were among the

absolute rules. Now, we don't have

absolute rules anymore. And then, this

is the kind of thing that eventually

happens, right? You don't have that that

that ultimate standard that you say

uh can't do this. Wrong. It's absolutely

wrong.

Which is what I knew intrinsically.

>> Yeah, but I don't think you were I I We

have absolute rules. We know that rape

is illegal. We know that rape is bad.

So, we do have an absolute rule. It's

It's a question of whether you have the

courage to live up to the rule, to obey

the rule. And again, I'll get back to

the president of the university who

should have really should have known

better. He's older than they are. He's

supposed to be wiser.

And he did nothing?

>> No, I'm not Look, I'm not defending him.

I'm just saying

>> I'm not saying I'm defending him.

>> The president's not going to be enough.

That's not enough, right? It's not We

have to look deeper. Where did these

kids get the idea that this is okay?

It's And the reason I say that you know,

it is because it's That's why I go back

to the Luigi Manzione thing or the

Charlie Kirk thing, that some people

think shooting people with whom you

disagree and you think they're

vehemently wrong is okay. No. See,

people do We do not have an absolute set

of rules anymore. Most of us do, but a

lot of us don't. And this is a

manifestation of that. So, this is what

I'm getting at. We have an underlying

fundamental problem in our society that

we must address. It's not political.

It's much deeper than political. It's

getting back to an idea that that we do

need an absolute set of standards by

which that we all agree on that we're

not going to do. So, if I think your

your political party is bad, I'm not

going to firebomb your office. If I

think your health care executive is

wrong, I'm not going to shoot him in the

back. If I think a girl comes in and she

seems like yeah, looks could be a lot of

fun, I'm not going to bring six of my

buddies and and

and sexually abuse her. No. These are

just fundamentally wrong. It has to come

It has to be the immediate response,

which is what Why my friend, my

fraternity brother said to me, we would

have

we would have walked into that room and

started yanking people out of the room

one by one. Because we knew better,

right?

>> We weren't saints. We just knew better.

>> better? Why did you go Why were you all

Why did you Why did you know better?

>> Cuz we were brought up in a society

where that was obviously not acceptable.

And now we're in a society where

everything is acceptable to some degree.

>> Was it societal or was it familial? I

mean, what It was a society Did society

change?

>> they were both. I think I think they

were both. I think, you know, we had

Look, we grew up in a fairly homogeneous

community. Um

>> We did.

>> And we all agreed on We all agreed on

how to behave, right? And even the

greater society pretty much agreed on

how to behave. You remember we were

growing up, you couldn't say damn on the

radio. If somebody said damn on the

radio, we would have like jumped out of

our chairs, right? Right? Well, now

every other word is the F word on TV, on

radio, in movies, in music, everywhere,

right? Okay, we talked We had a podcast

episode about this, but it tells you

something about society in which you

live. It tells you there's a fundamental

issue. When things like this happen,

there's a fundamental issue, and it's

how And I think it's not it's familiar,

but it's more society It's both. But,

you know, if only one family is feeling

this way, that's great, but it's not

enough to to create a coherent society.

Everybody's got to agree on this, and

that's where I think we're missing the

boat, and that's where I think the

problem is.

>> You know what harkens back to Lucy and

Desi

were not allowed to sleep in the same

bed. They had to have twin beds.

>> Dick Van Dyke.

>> Yeah. I things change. I mean, but but

but if it doesn't change, and if we

don't progress, then we never

we never

we never progress. So,

>> Well, you think we've progressed? You

think we've progressed in terms of our

morals and our standards? I think we've

kind of slid pretty well down the hill.

>> Um

I guess that's your opinion. I don't

know.

>> Yes, it is my opinion, but I think it's

Actually, it's not just my opinion, it's

what we see in our society when we see

these people getting shot in the back.

When we shoot When we we see these

things, when we see fraternities doing

or not fraternities, when we see men

together in a group, it's not the

fraternity, it's the men in the group

behave like this. All these kind of

things tell us, you know, when people

pushing people into railroad off the

subway platforms, on and on and on,

things we could never have imagined in

our youth. It tells you there is a

problem.

>> in our youth. It happened in our youth.

We're just forgetting.

>> Nobody pushed anybody into a subway off

a subway platform in our youth.

>> did. Bet you they did.

>> Okay, maybe once in a 100 years.

>> 24-hour day news cycles. Come on.

>> You'd know it. We had the New York

Times, we had the New York Post, we had

the what do you call it?

>> Daily News, News Times.

>> News. No, we'd know.

>> No, I don't know.

>> you know, the world is different. Our

Let's put it that way. Our society is

different. I'm not saying we were

perfect. We had a lot of problems. We

had racism. We had a lot of issues,

right?

>> That's right. You make it sound like

>> say we were perfect.

>> But

>> I'm saying but this this example is a

manifestation

This example is a manifestation of a

problem. And I think

>> Yes.

>> To me, to deny it, look, it gets back to

you how you started this with courage.

We have to have the courage to to

understand to to be introspective to

say, "Hmm, we got we're doing something

wrong here." By and large, we got to fix

it.

>> we have to have the courage

to change. Once we know, once we can see

it, once we set the standard, if you

will, then you've got to change. And you

that takes courage. How do I change?

>> I agree with you. Well, I agree with

you. I think the first thing is to

recognize, you know, it's like an

alcoholic. And I can't get anywhere if

you don't recognize you have a problem,

right? That's first step. It's the same

problem here. We have a problem in our

society. I'm just sorry. Our language

reflects it. Our behavior reflects it.

Episodes like this reflect it. We have a

problem. To deny it is to me, um

is turning a blind eye and ignoring the

reality. And it's screaming at you. And

this is not going to be the last episode

we have, by far and away. You know, how

many people were stunned by this? They

didn't like it, but I I I I don't think

anybody was stunned cuz we we see all

this kind of garbage happening in our

society all the time. We have to be We

have to have the courage, like you said,

to be introspective, to identify it, and

then, like you said, to do something

about it. So, do I think it's going to

happen? I've no idea.

But,

you know, I hope so. I hope so.

>> God, we're running out of time. Let me

leave my segment here, and then I'll

give you the final word. Go back to this

this article.

Courage, C.S. Lewis wrote,

is not simply one of the virtues, but

the form of every virtue at the testing

point, which means at the point of

highest reality.

How do we know what courage is? When we

see a man risk himself to care for

another person,

that's courage.

The legal judgment may be uncertain, but

the moral verdict is already in.

On the most traumatic night in a young

woman's life, a good man

could not be found.

Final word, Doc?

>> Yeah, "could that good man could not be

found."

>> [laughter]

>> That's the point. That's the whole point

of what I'm talking about. It shouldn't

be so hard to find a a good man or or

out of those 70, 70 should have gotten

it right, right? Everybody should have

gotten it right. None of them got it

right. And that tells you there's a

there's a problem. That by itself It's

not like that that, you know, a few

people didn't get it right. Hardly no

one of them got it right. And it That

should That That's almost impossible for

me to believe, right? Because in our

world, we grew up that wouldn't that

would not have been the norm. That We

would never have read an article about

that at my you know, certainly in my

fraternity, that would never have

happened.

>> But, you know, maybe it's I think we

need to get back to Sorry. Maybe we just

don't value people anymore. We just

don't value anybody. If you valued that

woman,

>> you know, it wouldn't have happened.

>> We don't. That's my point. We have a

fundamental problem. Right. I agree with

you. We don't value life. We don't value

people.

Um we you know, that we have a lot of

examples about how we don't value life.

I think it's that's that's a mistake and

it hurts

>> Yeah.

>> everybody. It's not just that woman who

got hurt. The whole society took fell

down and lost.

>> You got hurt. We all got hurt.

>> That's [clears throat] we all got we all

exactly because because we recognize

that we're living in a in a world we're

not

that's that's got it that's wrong.

That's that that slipped that's has

slipped away and we need to like you

said have the courage to to [music] to

look at it, be introspective and then

recognize it and then do something about

it. And I hope we

>> do. I hope we do, too. On that note,

I thank you for listening and thank you

for talking, [music] Doc.

>> I thank you for talking.

>> [laughter]

>> Yes, thanks everybody for listening and

we will see you next time.

>> [music]

>> Take care. Peace.