Episode 84: The Paradox of Technology

[music]

Welcome to Wisdom from the Aerial View,

the podcast for those who wish to crush

their anxiety and find meaning and

purpose in their lives. Hello, Dr.

Klein. How are you today, Mark?

>> Hello, Enid. How are you? I'm fine.

>> I'm fine, too. I I am fine. Uh, I was

just before we got on the podcast, we

were reminiscing about our conversation

with our old classmate Jeffrey Woolen

and it was wonderful and I it makes me

think how precious our friends really

are and that's I wanted to say to you

thank you again for being my friend.

>> Oh, thank you for being my friend.

>> Thank you for being okay. Today you had

sent me a text saying let's talk about

um technology and why we're stressed.

And so I did some of my little research

and I found an article that I thought

was fascinating. In fact was called the

paradox of technology. Why are we more

stressed than ever? And it was written

by a man whose name I will probably

probably mispronounce but his name is

Elio

Adby.

I don't know who he is or whatever but

he's a technology person. He's an

expert. And let me start this by reading

what he his first paragraph. He says,

"We're living in an era where technology

surrounds us, promising to make life

easier, more efficient, and connected.

Yet many of us are feeling more

stressed, overworked, and disconnected

than ever. It's a stark contrast to a

few decades ago when a 30-year-old

seemed to have less stress and appeared

younger, and more relaxed compared to

how they are, the counterparts today."

what happened along the way and why does

technology, a tool designed to simplify

our lives, simply feel like it's

contributing to our stress. So, you

wanted to talk about this and I think

you're right. I think technology makes

us more stressed. So, why did you want

to talk about it? And why do you think

technology is making our lives more

stressed?

>> Well, you start every episode of this

podcast saying uh that this is a podcast

for those who wish to cross your anxiety

and find meaning and purpose in their

lives. Mhm.

>> So I I think it's fair to say that

unless you have a mental illness, you

want to find uh meaning and purpose in

your life. I think everybody in some

degree does. Uh and of course, nobody

really wants to be anxious. So So

anything that um detracts from that goal

is worth thinking about. So I'm actually

quite pro technology in many ways. I

think in although if you read the

newspaper or well nobody reads a

newspaper anymore but if you happen to

see a newspaper or you see something on

Facebook or X uh or Tik Tok or anywhere

else um you know you're just inundated

with all this information all the time

and most of it is either curated to wind

you up on one side of the other [snorts]

sell you something or convince you of

something. it. So, you know, it's not

just uh information like bland quote

information with a capital I.

>> There's information overload.

>> Yes. But it's also targeted information.

It's out to make you think something or

do something. So, that is one of the

real problems. So, so even though I'm

very pro technology because honestly it

is this is the best time to be alive in

the history of mankind. Fewer people are

super poor, fewer people are hungry,

fewer people are homeless or in the

sense don't have a roof over their

heads, let's put it that way, really

than any time in history. Um, so yes, we

have I know you spent your your life and

continue to spend your life dealing with

uh hunger, especially in the elderly,

and that it still is a problem, but

compared to what it was 200 years ago,

it's not even close. So um so kudos to

you for for doing that cuz you're trying

to you're trying to eliminate it but 100

years ago 200 years ago eliminate it

wouldn't even have been a possibility.

So the point is that we've come a long

way and technology has really improved

our lives in many ways. But on the other

hand like most things there's a downside

and to me the downside is that it it

fools us. It distracts us from our main

purpose our main mission. And that's

really what I wanted to talk about. And

what does that do to people? It either

makes them uncomfortable, unstable,

uh aimless, confused,

and eventually anxious and even

depressed. Not most people, but but a

subset of people. And you know, the

other thing is think about the number of

people that are on anti- uh what we

would call um antiscychotic drugs or

mood mood enhancing drugs. The number of

people in this country that are taking

something to feel better is enormous,

right? Why? And why are they taking

that? Because they they're a little

knocked off their game. They're just not

feeling um purposeful and and and stable

and secure in what's going on in their

life. So, that's really what I wanted to

talk about. How how is technology this

uh

adding to this sense of what I would

call instability?

>> A couple of things. I I think we have

lost our ability to disconnect. Number

one, I we just can't disconnect. And

two, I I this is sort of off the topic,

but you just mentioned that people are

on antiscychotics. Are we

overprescribing? So, you go to the

doctor and you say, "I'm eager. I'm

anxious. I'm cra and they just

prescribe." Well, we'll shut you up.

We'll give you some pill. And then you

go home and you look it up. You take

your little Google machine. You look up

what that pill was for. I mean I think

what you know we can't disconnect even

when you go to the doctor I you come

home they prescribe whatever I have to

look it up and that sends me down

another rabbit hole. It gets to

technology. Are we are we sort of

mashing it all together? Are we are we

overprescribing ourselves and are we in

fact able to disconnect?

>> Well, you know that's a very good good

uh way to look at this. Uh I hadn't

thought of it that way but I really like

it. It's I I'll tell you an interesting

story. So I don't do social media and

then you know maybe six months ago uh I

forget what happened and my my wife

Bennett said something that she saw on

Instagram and she so I oh I know what it

was. I had created an Instagram account

uh years ago for my one of my early

books. not my first book because I don't

think Instagram was around then. But one

of my earlier books I had I had a

marketing person and she said to me,

"Oh, you have to get on Instagram and at

that time Twitter and Facebook and all

those things." I said, "Well, I don't do

anything." She have to. That's the way

it works. Fine. So, she helped me create

these accounts. This is a long time ago.

And as you know, the only time I ever

look at Facebook is when there's

something from our high school class.

You call me up and say, "Hey, you should

look at this." And that's the only time

I'm ever on Facebook. And I was never on

Instagram except I started making these

posts for this podcast and I did that

for a while but basically I didn't use

Instagram and then um my wife might have

said to me about something on Instagram

and I looked at it and just to see um

how you know what people do on

Instagram. This about six months ago

maybe. Uh so I I did it and I was

started getting see what my feed was.

What were they feeding me? Right. Well,

for some reason for a while I was

getting like fashion stuff and you know,

you know me, I'm not exactly a

fashionistas. That was interesting. Then

I got some sports stuff. I got I got a

whole mixture of stuff.

>> And then one day I was looking at it and

I just kept looking at it and I kept

looking at it and all of a sudden half

an hour had gone by and I went, "What am

I doing?" So, I got off it and then

maybe a couple week or so later, I

looked again and I'm I'm scrolling, what

people call doom scrolling. And 20

minutes goes by and you know me, I'm not

one to sit around doing things like

that. And it became obvious to me that

it just captured it didn't capture my it

captured my attention, but in a very

passive way, right? I just was like a

like a drone sitting in front of the

screen. And finally, what did I do? I

just deleted it from my phone, right? I

said, "This is silly. I don't even want

to have the opportunity to spend my time

doing that." So, I have lots of

activities.

>> Addictive, isn't it?

>> It's addict. It's addictive in a way

that I never felt, oh, I have to look. I

mean, I never got to that point where I

can't wait to get my phone out and look.

But if I was sitting around in between

something uh and I just happened to open

my phone and I saw it, I would say I I

could see myself doing this. So it only

did it like maybe three or four times,

something like that, maybe a handful of

times. And I was, "Oh my god, now I get

this, right?" So what does it do? So how

how does this what is it? What is a

negative aspect of this? Couple things.

One is it'll show you things that are

quite unpleasant. Somehow in there, I

got stuff that I thought that was

violent or

um demonstrating man's inhumity to man

in some ways. That was number one. and I

went, "Holy mackerel, people are

watching this. This is going to have an

effect on people." Number two, it it it

kept me from being with others. And to

me, that's the big problem. So, we have

a we've had a a constellation of events

that have focused this problem and made

it worse. One was CO. So, CO in CO by

itself could have just been a transient

phenomenon that lasted a year, 18

months, whatever, and we would have

gotten over it. But what happened in CO?

Everybody worked at home or those who

could. I mean, unfortunately, those

people who were who had who couldn't

work at home, those generally the lower

income earners because they were

delivering food or they were working in

a supermarket or you get the idea. These

were people who didn't have the luxury

of working at home and they were at risk

more than other people. Turns out the

risk for those people was probably

negligible because unless you're older,

the risk of getting seriously ill or

dying from CO was quite low, right? So,

but anyway, we didn't know that at the

time. So, the rest of us were sitting at

home. I think I told you that my my

practice required me to stay at home for

like three months because I was one of

the older people in the group. They

didn't at that point they thought, you

know, if you're over 60 and you get a

whiff of COVID, you're going to die,

right? Of course, that wasn't quite

true, but so I was one of the two or

three people that they said stay home.

[snorts] And then what happened after

that? Instead of everybody immediately

going back to the office or back to the

to work, they continued to stay home.

The federal government only went back to

work like a year ago or something like

that. It went on for years and even then

even then it never was 5 days a week. It

said okay you can work from home three

days a week stay home two days a week

right and that has persisted. So a

people are using technology to avoid

being with other people. That is the

worst idea one of the worst ideas of all

time. We need to be with each other. You

know it better than anybody. you go to

you you you you deal with older people

all the time and you see the loneliness,

>> right?

>> And when you you've had your these

people at the at the um uh senior center

that you help out at, they all say the

same thing. They look forward to it to

be together. We need to be together. So,

this is one of the negatives of

technology. It's pulled us away from

each other. It's really bad. Number two,

it's shown us the worst of each other.

So

you know the story when people were

coming to the United States for the

World Cup, there was great trepidation

in many from many countries thinking,

"Oh, the United States is a violent

place. Everybody has a gun. Everybody's

shooting everybody. You know, this I

don't know if I really want to go. It's

a dangerous place." And of course, they

all came and went, "Oh, we love America.

It's great. You got Waffle House and,

you know, all kinds of cool stuff. And

we love America. America's great." And

that's why you didn't hear any negative

stories about from from people who

attended the World Cup. Uh they all

loved it, right? almost everybody loved.

You didn't see hear one negative story

of of somebody from like Norway saying

the United States is a pit. No,

everybody loved it. Right. And because

when we're not together, we we are

convinced by the little snippets that we

see in on X or in Facebook or Tik Tok or

whatever YouTube that X group of people

is terrible, this area is terrible,

people are mean, people are horrible,

whatever. And you and you see the you're

exposed to the worst of people. Whereas

if when you're in groups and you're

hanging out together, you see generally

see the the good parts of people and you

go, "This is pretty good." Right? So

that's another negative of technology.

So it's pulled us apart. It's kept us

from being together and it's shown us in

many ways and and um echoed uh and re um

what's the right term? Um reinforced are

these ideas of that people are bad and

people are evil and people are dangerous

and people are out to get you, which of

course there's some of that in the

world, but it's a minority. So this is

what I wanted. This is why techn this is

the negative part of technology.

>> Well, I think when you're talking about

um in this case we're talking about the

stress that technology forces on people.

People are stressed. One of the things

that has always amazed me is how younger

people have a tendency to want to make

sure that they look good to their

friends. And so they're posting things

on Facebook and whatever about how good

they look at this or whatever. I I will

admit I am not on Tik Tok. I've never

looked at Tik Tok. I have no idea what

it is. I'm not on Instagram. I don't do

it's not my thing. But you see people

who are constantly I just saw it today.

I was working doing some thing at a at a

um an assisted living facility and some

young people came to visit. I guess it

was a a mother or an aunt or whatever

and they were taking pictures of

themselves with the person and it struck

me as sad because and I don't like that

word. There was this older person and

there were these young people

surrounding this older person taking

this selfie or whatever of them with the

senior and she was sitting there just

sort of in a daysaze. What are these

people doing? And then they're going to

post it on Facebook and they're going to

post it on Instagram. Okay. And but they

they were not relating to to the older

woman sitting there. They were relating

to each other. And it struck me that

we're using technology for what purpose?

So they can put her on Instagram to say

I was here with granny today or

whatever. And granny sat there stressed

to the max. She did not know what was

happening. She did not know what was

going on. So technology, they were using

technology and they didn't realize they

were stressing out granny. It just it

struck me. It just was sort of

interesting how they were visiting

Granny and yet they couldn't disconnect

from that technology at for 22 minutes.

It was

>> Well, give me, you know, it's funny you

you mentioned that cuz you know, I go to

a lot of national parks and

>> when you go to the national parks, what

do you see? You see people everywhere

holding their cameras, right?

>> And I take a lot of pictures, don't get

me wrong, at the national here's what I

try and do. I'll either first take

pictures and then put the phone away and

then just stare out at the beauty in

front of me and enjoy it or I'll do that

first and then take some pictures to

remember. But I always separate the two

because otherwise you miss the moment. I

am very pro technology. I love

technology. I'm usually one of the first

people to get cool new things. I like

it. I enjoy it. But the danger is when

it when it detracts from the mission.

What's the mission? mission is to make

this evolution from selfish to selfless,

from inward focus to outward focus, no

selfies, turn the camera around to other

people. When it distracts from that,

when it when it when it allows us to sit

in our homes and work or or

uh earn our living in one way or another

and not interact with other people,

that's bad. when it f when the focus

becomes the technology itself capturing

image rather than enjoying the moment

and appreciating where you are not good

>> so it's a double-edged sword in many

ways I hate to use that term because

it's it's not really descriptive but the

point is it's not that we should get rid

of technology technology like I said it

it is it has been a tremendous boom for

mankind in so many ways and it will

continue to be

>> but but when we lose the interaction

among people that's why we're here. Now,

I I firmly believe this. And people can

disagree with me, and they're perfectly

allowed to disagree with me. You

disagree with me sometimes, but which is

fine, but I'm thoroughly convinced

that's why we're here. That's what it's

about for humans, maybe other species as

well. You know, I'm not, you know, I

watch whale pods and dolphins and groups

that hang out together and, you know,

different uh primates and I think

there's probably some of it, too. I

don't know. I can't speak to other

species as well as at all. And there are

experts in each of these fields. I can

that could probably answer that

question. Maybe we'll have him as a

guest. But at least for humans, that's

what that's what it appears to be about.

And that's why I I again don't want to

take away the technology, want to

separate that technology. Sure. Let's

>> And we talked about stress, you know,

I'm not sure I think the stress because

you you bring up a great point. So let's

talk about what is causing the stress.

So in your situation with the

grandmother who may have have maybe

she's having some cognition issues. I

don't know, maybe it's confusing, but

for the rest of us, so what are the

causes of stress? One is you're always

on. So your boss or a co-orker or

somebody can uh can always get to you,

right? And maybe you don't have that

separation that I can turn it off. I'm

done. I'm free. That's part of the

stress.

>> Also, the fear of missing out, that

FOMO, right? Yes. Younger people have

that phone in their hand. What's going

on? What are my friends doing? What you

Why aren't I there? What? How come

they're in? How come they're Turks and

Caos and I'm not? you know that's

another source of stress right

>> also you know looking at other people

and what they have maybe I'm not good

enough I'm not smart enough I'm not

good-looking enough I'm not accomplished

enough that's another source of stress

so there are various sources of stress

you know of course the answer to all of

this is the same as what we've talked

about now for many episodes which is

that none of that's important you know

when you understand the aerial view then

you don't have to worry about those

things you are only responsible for your

own behavior you are uh you can never be

diminished by the misdeeds of others

only by your own understanding what your

purpose is. These things help combat all

those areas of stress. But for many

people it's super difficult and like you

said the technology the presence of

technology can can exacerbate these

multiple types of stress. Uh and it's to

and we see it every day. We see it in

our society. You talk about how many

people are medicated. Not only too many

people overmedicated, but even maybe not

worse, but equally or maybe more

severely uh problematic is the number of

people who see therapists.

Now, if you go to see a therapist for a

few months because you have problem X or

Y, great. If you're seeing a therapist

for 15 years, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no. There's something wrong, right? And

a lot of people see therapists all the

time, and I'm not criticizing them.

They're seeing therapists because they

can't, they're not getting a solution

from another source. They're feeling

this instability. I like that word

instability because, you know, we've

talked about this uh when you become a

person of substance, it's like your legs

are encased in concrete. So, when a

stiff wheel wind blows, you're not going

over. For many people, you've heard me

say this, they're like balanced. It's as

if they're balanced on a single stone

and a and a good wind will blow them

right over. They're not secure enough in

who they are. They're not stable enough

and not confident enough in who they are

and what their purpose is and why

they're here. And so what do they do?

They seek, you know, rightly so, they

seek help and they seek help from

therapists, many of whom I think are, I

won't say not qualified, but I will say

not helpful, right? They're not they're

not making the problem better. Uh the

the real solution is you have to empower

people. You have to teach them the

things that we, you know, we try and

talk about a lot. How to become a person

of substance, what it takes to become a

person of substance. And then you get

then you develop that concrete

foundation and you're not getting blown

over so easily. So, just to get back to

as an aside to talk about your question

around are people overmedicated? They're

overmedicated and they're over

therapized. I don't think therapized is

a word, but it should be right. You get

the idea.

>> Well, let let's talk about that. I mean,

I there are people I I guess who are

going to therapists for years and years

and years, and I good good for them.

They're looking to they need to talk to

somebody. I I I believe that um they

just need to vent or whatever it is.

What for whatever purpose they go?

I'm not sure I see anything wrong with

it. Uh I haven't done it, but but I know

that there are people who do and God

bless them. If they think that's going

to help them, then then I don't see

what's wrong with that.

>> I don't look I'm you know me, I'm pro

people. I want to do anything that can

help anybody. I spent my whole career

helping people. As I told you, I still

get phone I haven't seen patients. Well,

that's not true, but I have I've I've

been out of my practice for three years,

but rarely does a day go by where I

don't have a phone call uh from somebody

about a medical issue, which I helped

them negotiate. Uh in fact, yesterday

I had somebody who we both know had had

been asking me some questions. So, I'm

all for helping people. But my problem

is if you're going to see a therapist

for the tells you they're not helping

you, right? What you have, it's not that

you need to vent or have somebody to

talk to. It's you need to become a

person of substance so you're not easily

blown over by whatever event occurs. So,

so we need to teach people how to get

there, which is what honestly what we've

been trying to do in in this podcast,

what I try to do in my in my writings,

but because that's if you really I

always say if you love people, you tell

them the truth and then you help them

through the problem and you help them

solve the problem permanently or as

permanently as possible. You don't just

sit there. If I w I could not imagine

being a therapist and having somebody

coming to me every week for 10 years,

which is not uncommon, right? It is

extremely common. And I'd say I would

feel guilty. I'd say I'm obviously not

helping this person. I mean, yeah, they

come, they pay me x number of dollars

for my 50-minute hour, but they're

really not a whole lot better than they

were 10 years ago. What am I doing? I'm

a failure as a as a professional. That's

kind of how I would feel. If I can't

help a patient and I can't and and we've

all been in this situation in medicine,

if I can't direct a patient a patient in

some manner to help them solve the

problem, then I feel I feel like uh like

I've let them down, right? I I feel

responsible to make them to help them

get better. Not that I'm going to treat

them because I don't do that, but to

direct them to get a diagnosis and

direct them to the right place. So,

yeah, I don't think I I think if you're

a therapist and you're treating me for

10 years, you need to think about what

you're doing. And so what you need to do

is this is training. This is learning

how to become a person of substance.

Anybody can do it. Everybody can do it.

So that's what that's what we should be

doing for starting when people are

young. The earlier you learn it, the

better. And you know there's never too

late. I know a lot of people who are,

you know, in the latter part of their

life who still feel the same way. And

I've always feel like our job is in in

in any kind of health care is to is to

help them overcome that permanently so

they don't need to talk to somebody

about this out infinitum.

>> But I I do think that people are lonely

and looking for something maybe looking

for direction. I think that too that if

you have suicidal ideiation and you have

been talking to a therapist and you

didn't die by suicide then the therapist

probably helped. So I I don't know. I

guess we can

>> No, we're talking about Okay, I agree

with you. That's a small group of

people. I'm talking people who go for

anxiety.

>> I don't know how small that God forbid.

I don't know how small that group of

people is. I know that that suicide

rates are up. So if anything can help

them prevent suicide, I more power too.

>> I agree with you. I agree with that. I I

don't mean to minimize but if you look

at the universe if you look at the

universe of therapy in this country

right

>> a very tiny fraction of people who are

psychotic who are hearing voices who are

uh who have suicidal thoughts it's not I

wouldn't say tiny but it's relatively

small compared to the large volume of

people who who expressing what you're

talking about loneliness anxiety uh uh

in insecurity all these things right

they That's what I'm talking about.

>> So, the people that really need help,

that's a different story.

>> Yeah. Well, I I guess it's a question of

who who decides who needs help. I don't

know. I can't make that decision. And

quite frankly, I don't think you can

either. If you think you need help and

you're talking to somebody, you can be

talking to a friend. Isn't that therapy,

too? I I I don't know. I think that we

have different ideas about this and and

we should. That's fine. Uh, I think that

if someone admits that they need help,

then they should go get help.

>> Okay, so let's let's stick this for a

minute. Uh, if somebody who needs help,

let's say, I'm having I'm hearing

voices. I'm paranoid.

>> Okay, you need help. Serious help. If

you think my life is worthless, I'm

thinking of ending it. You need help.

Nobody I would never disagree with that

ever. Ever. And I've dealt with people

like this in my in my career. Um, but

I'm talking about the people who are

mostly just anxious, some level of

anxiety or insecurity or uh discomfort

in their lives. Yes, talking to people

is great. But if if a therapist is

seeing you for 10 years, then then to me

that's a failure. It's a failure. It's

like keeping somebody on a drug that

doesn't cure them when there's no other

alternative available. Right? So that's

what I'm talking about. So, you know, we

got a little off the topic of

technology. And I'll tell you why. Bring

it back to technology because now there

are people who are using technology

to help them. In other words, they're

using technology as as therapy.

There are those who are doing that. They

I mean there are people who are now

dating chat bots or whatever that

whatever that is. I you I think they're

turning to technology for therapy.

Well, I'm not saying that will never

work. Who knows? AI is pretty good.

Maybe we'll maybe they'll have better

maybe we'll have AI therapists who are

better than human the I don't know. But

that's to me it it's it's

>> the issue with technology and stress to

me is that it removes our our

interaction with others too much that

that when we talk about taking the

phones from high school students, right,

and all of a sudden they're having lunch

together like we did in high school and

they're talking and they're goofing

around and playing games, whatever

they're doing, right? Yeah.

>> And we remember that very fondly, right?

And

>> and when when technology removes that

human interaction, that's where the

problem is.

>> Agree. And

>> totally agree.

>> At any age. It's not just It's

especially important for younger people,

but it's really at any age.

>> Sure. In fact, I'm looking at the clock.

I see we're running out. I I wanted to

let me end with back to this this man

who wrote this piece who's a software

engineer. You see, and then I'll let you

kind of extrapolate what this meant and

figure it out. He said, "While

technology has certainly transformed the

way we live and work, it's essential to

recognize and address the new forms of

stress it brings. By setting boundaries

and engaging in mindful usage, we can

harness today's technology benefits

while protecting our well-being. After

all, the goal isn't to reject

technology, but to use it in a way that

supports a balanced, healthy, and

fulfilled life.

>> Yeah, it's a tool. It's a great tool,

but it shouldn't substitute for human

interaction. which is why, you know,

there's been all this talk about

technologies, AI is going to eliminate

all these jobs.

>> Well, it will probably eliminate some

jobs. It's likely to create even more.

Uh, but humans, here's a here's a real

We have a couple minutes left. I just

want to tell you the story. Okay, that's

a good that's a good story. So, I needed

to buy something. Uh, I'll tell you

exactly. I needed to buy a new electric

toothbrush cuz my electric toothbrush

had the battery no longer would retain a

charge. So, [snorts] I went online and I

looked around and I ended up end up at

Walmart plus, right? So, you know, so I

uh go to Walmart and I ordered this

toothbrush. Great. It's going to come

the next day. I open it up. The next day

it comes and it's it's in a box that's

been opened with a sticker on the back

saying the return sticker that somebody

brought back three days earlier and they

sent it to me as a new toothbrush. Well,

clearly somebody made a mistake, right?

Fine. So, I'm going great. Now, wait.

So, I go online to return it and it says

you have to take this to a Walmart

store. Well, I don't live particularly

close to a Walmart store. Uh, so I'm

thinking, well, that can't be right. I'm

sure I can just mail this back. They

mailed it to me and somebody dropped it

off, you know. So, I call Walmart,

right? Well, you know how that went.

Chatbot number one takes you to chatbot

number two. On and on and on. I mean,

this whole thing was just like I wasn't

infuriated. I because I try not to get

infuriated about those things, but but

I'm spending a lot of time and I'm

starting to laugh and I'm thinking this

is why and this is the new AI chatbots.

They're so great, right? No, people want

to be able to talk to a person. So,

we'll cut to the end of the story. After

an hour on the phone with these people

promising me they're going to figure out

a way, I hang up this woman, this woman

who is the supervisor. I think she's in

India. She's very nice. But she said to

me, "Um, yeah, I figured this out that

you're going to get an email and they'll

tell you they'll they're going to tell

you how to send it back." So, she hangs

up and about a second later, I get a

text saying, "You can't you can't mail

this back. It has a lithium battery in

it. You have to take it to the store."

>> Oh,

>> so after an hour, okay, fine. So, I give

up. I have to take it to the store. So,

yesterday I happened to be out and about

and I It's about a half an hour ride to

the Walmart, but I fig Okay, fine. I'll

just get rid of it. So, I go to the

Walmart and I go I walk in and I go to

the return section. There's one woman

before me and um she finishes and I walk

up to this talk to this woman and the

woman um I'm going to guess she's

probably 60 African-American woman big

smile on her face says to looks at the

thing. I hand it to her and she goes,

"Oh my god, honey, this is ridiculous.

They should never have sent you this.

I'm going to I'm going to do something

about this." So, first of all, let me

let me just return it in two seconds.

and she had it back on my credit card.

She said, "But that's not good enough.

They should never have done this to you.

This is wrong. I'm going to write this

up about." And we were laughing about it

and having a great time about it. And

she was delightful. And I walked out of

store thinking that was worth the trip

cuz you know me, I love talking to

people, right?

>> And she was great. She was sensational.

She didn't just say fine, you know,

here's your return. She reacted like any

human being would at the absurdity of

this situation. And we had a good laugh

about it. We we we had this little, you

know, three minutes of bonding and it

was delightful. Absolutely delightful.

And I walked out saying that was worth

it. I'm so glad I had a drive to

Walmart. Now think about what I just

said. I'm so glad I had to drive to

Walmart. It was an hour round trip,

right? [laughter]

But I had this experience with this

woman. That's the point. So technology,

I could have gotten a label and sent it

back and, you know, dropped it off at a

UPS store, whatever. But no, no, I had

to physically go. And at the end of the

day, the interaction with this woman was

so fun, so pleasant that my I that the

attitude instead of saying, "I can't

believe they made me do this," it was it

turned out to be a great experience. I

know it sounds bizarre, but it was it

was a great experience. That's the

point. Don't let technology take away

from what is really meaningful and

valuable in life, right? Technology is

tremendously valuable, but drive to the

Walmart, talk to the person, you'll be

much happier in the long run. And that's

I think the message how we how we undo

the stress of technology is is by making

sure it doesn't interfere with the

interpersonal relationships that are

that generate the true joy in life.

>> Very good. Very good. I I thank you for

today's broadcast sponsored by our

sponsor [music] Walmart. And uh

>> if only right if only

>> you know [music] and I thank you good

conversation.

>> All right. Thank you. Thank you

everybody for listening and [music]

we'll see you next time.

>> Peace.

>> [music]