Episode 83: An Interview with Award-winning Photographer Jeff Wolin
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>> Welcome to Wisdom from the Aerial View,
the podcast for those who wish to crush
their anxiety [music]
and find meaning and purpose in their
lives. Good morning, Mark.
>> [music]
>> Good morning, Enid.
>> I want to say that today we've got a
very, very, very special guest. [music]
It's a friend of both Mark and me.
Someone we've known for way too many
years [music] where just shows how old
we are. His name is Jeff Wolin and
we've known Jeff, I think, since
elementary school.
Long time ago. Yeah, at least 12 years.
Uh
>> [laughter]
>> Let me tell you a little bit about this
guy that that First of all, I have to be
honest and tell our listeners that it is
amazing for me because I am now on a
screen here with two people I've had a
crush on since elementary school.
>> Now she tells us.
>> [laughter]
>> And I never nabbed them, but here I got
them Now I got them in a box and they
can't get away. So, so hey guys, you're
all mine.
Let me tell you who this guy is.
Um
Jeff Wolin.
He's a celebrated photographer,
educator,
and chronicler of human experience.
He's a professor emeritus of photography
at Indiana University, a career spanning
several decades.
Decades with his work exhibited across
the United States and Europe. His work
is part of the permanent collections at
the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the LA
County Museum of Art, the San Francisco
Museum of Art, etc., etc., etc., and
Enid Borden Museum of Art.
He has received two visual artist
fellowships from the National Endowment
for the Arts and a Guggenheim Fellowship
for his contributions to photography.
His work explores memory, trauma,
and identity.
Holocaust survivors, Vietnam War
veterans, residents of housing projects,
and people experiencing homelessness.
So, he's not just an ordinary
photographer.
He's a photographer with a soul.
With a man
who has
exhibited
everything we talk about on this show
about meaning and purpose. This is who
this man is. But, I want to read you one
other thing
from his book. I'm I'm really interested
in he he knows this. I I love one of his
one of my favorites is Faces of
Homelessness.
And we're talking about homelessness
this book. And I just want to read you
one quick thing here.
For them,
there's no elsewhere.
No home to return to, at least for now.
No door
to shut in the photographer's face.
The camera is, as Susan Sontag once
said, predatory,
moving more swiftly than the painter's
brush. It takes what it wants before one
knows what it has done, gains by stealth
and maybe without permission, what the
painter acquires through patience and
persistence.
You are a man, Jeff Wolin, on a
mission.
And that's why we wanted to have you on
this podcast today to talk about that,
your mission, your purpose. We love you.
I've said enough, Mark. What do you want
to say?
>> Actually, I don't think you've said
enough. I'm really enjoying this.
>> Mark, [laughter] now keep going.
>> I was only disappointed after you got
after you got to the San Francisco
Museum of Art you can when I said etc.
etc. etc. I was hoping you would list
all of them.
>> Well, one of them is in France and I
don't speak French. I can't even
pronounce it.
>> There's one in Austria. He's everywhere.
This guy is everywhere. So, um
yeah, you know, it's a I have so many
thoughts. First of all, Jeff, I'm so
glad you're here.
Jeff and I we all know each other for
many, many years. I remember Jeff lived
about
maybe a hundred yards from me, you know,
maybe.
Uh
Uh and well, so we were I remember
spending time at his home and him and my
home and growing up, and
you know, then those are the really
early years, and of course we all went
to high school, and then what something
terrible happened that uh we sort of
lost touch. Uh I don't know about you,
and if Jeff and I lost touch for a long
time. Like a career's worth of time.
Now, we're going to get to that in a
minute about how insignificant that
really is. And then at one of our
reunions, high school reunions,
uh Jeff walks up, who looks, by the way,
exactly the same. If you there are some
people who, you know, you look at and
you go and they tell you their name you
go, "Okay, that what did you do with the
real so-and-so? That's not that you're
not that person." But not Jeff Wallin.
He looks the same. You'd pick, you know,
if you hadn't seen him in 50 years, you
wouldn't have any problem. You'd find
him. He looks great. Everybody looks the
same. So, we started talking, and we
just, you know, as these things happen,
we just kind of rebonded, whatever
that's the right term, reconnected,
whatever. And then we've been That's a
number of years ago. We've been
obviously talking to each other
regularly and seeing each other
regularly, and of course since you and I
live close to each other, uh
you know, we get to see each other. Now,
when Jeff's here, he comes to visit, and
like and when I go to Chicago, we visit
him. So, you know, we've rekindled this
really valuable relationship. And the
the funny part is is that
the relationship we rekindled was a
childhood relationship. We did This is
not a professional relationship. We
missed each other's careers. It's really
funny when you think about it. So, it's
great. It It's uh I know Jeff feels the
same way that you and I do, you know,
that it's so great that we're to that
we're together again, and and and I I
think it's a good idea to talk about all
the things that Jeff has brought uh
through his art and through his craft to
to the world.
>> Absolutely.
>> So, go ahead. Quiz him.
>> [laughter]
>> Now, I just let let me ask you this,
Jeff, because
and everything Ma- Mark said was
obviously is true.
What made you
find your mission
in your work? You see, your work is
astounding, but it's not just photos.
It's photos with a mission. Tell us
about that. Tell us about your mission,
your purpose.
>> Well, I'm I'm speaking now with two old
friends who I love dearly. And I'm so
happy we're reconnected after all these
years.
And both of you have definitely
found your missions. Eenie and working
with
seniors and ending senior hunger.
And Mark as a as a medical doctor,
radiologist, and and a healer.
So,
we've all been fortunate. We came from
our childhoods and we were just kind of
dorky
nerdy kids. And
found found our way. Who knows why?
What drove us?
I can speak for myself in that I
it it
I wasn't handed an envelope and it
that's saying, "Okay, go to college,
then become a photographer, and
>> [laughter]
>> go out and and teach the couple of
generations of students." It it wasn't
like that at all. It was fumbling my
way. But each experience that I had
somehow was a was a step in the in the
direction towards finding my way.
And I was very lucky. So, I went to
college and like most of the kids from
our high school, I was going to become a
doctor like Mark did become.
But um along the way and I was taking
all the courses, you know, and and I I
loved taking the hard courses, you know,
advanced calculus uh
you know, I wasn't just taking the stuff
that a lot of time pre-meds do to get
high grades. I was I wanted to challenge
myself and learn stuff.
So,
along the way and I I I drifted and
became the year you have to declare a
major, I declared it and I I switched uh
early in the semester from biology to
uh English literature.
And uh I wanted to become a writer. All
my friends all wanted to become writers.
And Kenyon College, where I went, has
the Kenyon Review. It's it's steeped in
the tradition of of writing and writers,
and they were always bringing in people
to
to read poems or or short stories to us.
And uh my mentor, the first person who
really matter really mattered to me, was
was my one of my professor of
uh contemporary American literature. And
he turned me on to all the great stuff
from the Beatniks, Kurt Vonnegut, um
you know, and and uh
uh I mean, I don't I'd taken Chaucer and
we had to read him in Middle English and
whatever, but this changed me. Uh this
fellow Karl Kopp changed me. And he took
an interest in me. He believed in
And I was just starting photography on
my own. They didn't teach photography in
those days at
Kenyon College. They do now, but they
didn't. So, I had to uh teach myself.
And I got help from
some mutual friends of ours, Ricky
Rosenthal, who we know and love and who
died way too early, uh taught me how to
develop film. Heh. Friends at college
taught me how to go in the darkroom and
make prints.
And I started to combine my passion for
storytelling with my photography.
>> It's amazing. I mean, and and you are a
storyteller. That's the beauty of your
photography. It's not just the
photograph. There are the words that
accompany the photos, which is also very
unique. How did you
put the two First of all, I want to
The day you picked up a camera,
was that sort of a
a aha moment for you? You picked up a
camera and your life changed?
>> So, I spent the summer, yes, absolutely.
I spent the summer between my sophomore
and junior years uh
working at at at a dry cleaner in in
Cedarhurst delivering clothes in a van.
I would I would drive around the Five
Towns and drop off clothing that had
been dry-cleaned.
And uh and I saved up all my money and I
went to a camera store in
uh Green Acres, big shopping mall near
by.
>> Let me just interrupt for a second
because not everybody knows what what
the heck you're talking about. So, we
grew up in this community on the South
Shore of Long Island just just over the
border of Queens. So, we could we could
literally ride our bikes into Queens if
we wanted to. We're very close to
Queens. So, it's that side of Nassau
County on Long Island that's just past
Queens. So, just outside New York City.
Our families, I'm going to speak for all
of us cuz I'm going to sure it's true,
decided to leave New York uh
either Queens or Brooklyn, whatever,
and moved to Long Island because the
schools were better for the kids. And I
think that's probably the number one
motivating factor. So, we live in this
community it was called the Five Towns
because there were five towns. And
that's what that's what Jeff is
referring to. Okay, I'm sorry to
interrupt you.
>> [laughter]
>> Uh sorry, each time you you do it makes
me think of another memory.
>> [laughter]
>> Well, anyway, so there I I did that. I
saved up. I went to the camera store and
bought a camera. And I got a really
lousy one cuz it was all I could afford.
It was called the Hanimex Practica.
Fortunately for the world, it's no
longer made.
>> [laughter]
>> And uh 35 mm and I got black and white
film cuz that was what was cool. And um
some friends of mine and I decided to
drive from New York City to California.
And we went up through Chicago, where
I'm sitting right now, up through uh
Wisconsin and Minnesota and up into
Canada, across Canada, down the West
Coast.
And we didn't have any money. We just
had this car and we just we slept
outside in in uh sleeping bags
uh at night. We even stayed in what I
now know is a homeless shelter in in
Portland, Oregon.
>> [laughter]
>> And, uh, just had experiences along the
way. My friend one of my friends was
from the Bronx and he was, uh, actually
a child of, uh, Holocaust survivors,
Auschwitz survivors, and he was making
films. And he made a career out of
becoming a filmmaker in Los Angeles.
We're still in touch. And I was taking
pictures along the way. At that point,
I'd never heard of Robert Frank and The
Americans where Robert Frank, the Swiss
guy, came and drove cross-country and
took photographs along the way and
showed America
in a new light. Uh, and, uh,
but there I was photo
driving cross-country taking pictures of
our experiences.
And, uh, and then when I got back to
school in the fall,
uh, I I Well, Ricky taught me, before I
went back to school, Ricky taught me how
to develop the film. And when I got back
to school, I started to make the prints
from that trip.
And, uh, another thing that was really
formative for me,
and it was lucky in the This is because
I was at a small school that was very,
uh,
I don't know what
>> [clears throat]
>> encouraging to for all of us for
whatever weird we wanted to do.
There was a uh
a guy who somehow managed to buy a
Chandler & Price printing press, an old
school two-ton maybe or one-ton printing
press with movable type and it was set
up in the basement across the hall from
the darkroom.
And so, I used to I was in the darkroom
a lot, but I started going into this
print shop and learning how to set type
and make and print pages. We taught
ourselves. We didn't have any
idea what we were doing, but we had a
fabulous time printing stuff. And we'd
get friends who were in the art
department to illustrate stuff. And we
made little books of poetry and
broadsides and stuff. So, um, I was
combining words, you know, on on one
side of the hall with pictures on the
other.
Somewhere along the way
>> [clears throat]
>> after after college, I decided to
bring it all together. And when I went
to graduate school at the Rochester
Institute of Technology, I wanted to go
there because they had a fabulous
book arts program and it was the biggest
photography school in the universe. So,
I was able to combine my thesis was a
book of my writings with my pictures.
And that just launched my career. I I I
wanted to
make
started with books, but then years later
because words in the art world were
it's not persona non grata, but
unwelcome.
If you have to use words, then you're
you're failing as a visual artist.
Uh like that. And I I didn't tend to
agree, but that was but that was the
world and you had to do what the world
dictated. But somewhere along the way I
was like,
"Yeah, I really like pictures and
words." But I I didn't want to just do
the words to illustrate the pictures to
illustrate the words like illuminated
manuscripts or vice versa that the words
would illustrate the pictures. I wanted
to
combine them somehow that in a way that
really hadn't been done before. I didn't
think about it like that. I just
thought, "Well,
I can put I can put the words. I can
write my stories and I can write them
right on the pictures." But I had to
make the pictures in such a way that the
words would
seamlessly go in there and look okay.
So, that began my career and that really
changed everything. The art the
photography world, which was becoming a
thing around then. Before that,
photography was considered a
>> [snorts]
>> an unwelcome intruder into the art
world, but that changed very very
quickly and
blew up, you know, and became
one of the most exciting art forms of
the
'80s, '90s,
and to this day is this very much
welcome in the art world. It's the
integral part of the art world. So, that
was it. My career took off. I started
getting the awards, the NEA and the
Guggenheim, and got a teaching job at
Indiana University, which was the second
oldest MFA photo program in the country
and had a rich tradition of of educating
terrific photographers and the faculty
were all exhibiting artists and
so that that that's how I got that's how
I got started and I've been and I
haven't looked back since.
>> You know, it's amazing, Jeff. I'm
listening to this
and you know, you were in college, so we
went to obviously all three of us went
to different colleges, so that's really
when we started to really lose track of
each other.
And you were
what impresses me and I'm listening to
the your maturity. Now, you we we're all
the same age within a year or so and I'm
listening to this thinking
so Jeff went out and decided to pick up
a camera and see what happened. And at
that age, the only thing I was
interested in picking up was girls.
So, [laughter]
and I wouldn't have you were way better
at the camera part than I was at the
picking up the girls part, but
[laughter]
but I'm thinking it is so amazing
because I just want to contrast I'm I'm
you know, I'm I'm I'm a big fan of yours
not just friends, but I also want to
admire. So, we're close friends, we love
each other, but I'm also an admirer cuz
I have all your books.
You sent me
I think you sent me I don't think I ever
bought one. You wouldn't let me, but I
think I have all I have your books,
which I have literally right behind me.
You can't well, you might be able to see
them, but they're they're right behind
me on my book on my the bookcase. Yeah,
and it's so our listeners can't see this
cuz we've wisely decided to make this an
audio-only podcast,
but
we have we have all your books, but what
impresses me the most is that you had
this depth of uh
of of thought and depth of this
intellectual curiosity. Not only that
you were decided to become a literature
major and read Chaucer. Like God knows
that that would never cross my mind.
But you know, but I was on a track of
okay, you know, I just thought I want to
go to medical school and
once you get on that track, I mean it's
it's uh
the good news is that unless you screw
up, you're not going to fall off the
train. And if you just keep going and
keep putting keeping your nose down and
working hard, you'll get to the end.
Whereas what you were doing is a lot
more high-risk. Nobody guaranteed you
anything. You you literally invented
your career. You invented you you
invented who you were, you invented your
career, you invented your your life in a
lot of ways. Uh that take that That's
why I say it's a lot of maturity, a lot
of depth of thought. And and for me to
to to
uh compare in a sense what I did to what
you've done, um
it's super impressive to me. It always
has been because it's so it was so
risky. There's a lot of risk involved
and you didn't worry about it. You just
said, "I'm just going to do what I want
to do and see where my intellectual
curiosity takes me." And it turned out
it worked out well, but you didn't know
that was going to happen. You didn't
know you're going to become a tenured
professor in Indiana and have your work
exhibited all over the world in
permanent
exhibits and win all these awards. You
just decided, "This sounds like a good
idea. I'm interested in this. I'll teach
myself. I'll educate myself." And that
is, you know, especially nowadays, I
mean I don't think a lot of young people
listen to this podcast. They should.
But that's an super impressive thing.
You know, I'm sure you feel the same way
that I do.
>> I do. And what what I'm most impressed
with I is your subject matter. You don't
take I mean, it's nice that you take
pictures of birds and trees and but
that's not what you do. It's not who you
are. Your subject matter is important
your subject matter matters. And I would
say I would say this from the bottom of
my heart that you have made a difference
in the world because not only have you
talked about
homelessness and the Holocaust, you've
shown us. You've drawn the picture.
You're a storyteller with word and
picture. And that's to me what's most
impressive. You have changed lives. You
have changed the world. You've met
people where they live and you've told
their story. I I love that.
>> So the one
So the one that uh the Pigeon Hill, is
that the right name? Is that Pigeon
Okay. So this is a book people should
look at. Um what's the title of it?
>> Pigeon Hill Then and Now.
>> Pigeon Hill Then and Now. And this is a
These are photographs and stories about
these people who lived Uh you tell the
You tell the story cuz I I That was to
me was very very um really struck me the
first time I looked at it.
>> So Pigeon Hill is on the west side of
Bloomington and it's a uh
it's it's
what we would call the other side of the
tracks. It's There was There's a lot of
property there. It's subsidized housing
now. In the old days it was just a bunch
of shacks. And one of these world-famous
photographers became world-famous
photographers, Jerry Uelsmann, when he
was a graduate student at Indiana,
went there and documented the lives of
the people there. And uh so I wasn't the
first person to go over there. But what
happened was there was a
a really gruesome murder on Pigeon Hill.
It was a graduate student an English an
English literature
at Indiana who uh sort of had lost her
way. She was from a fairly wealthy
family. Uh but she was having some
issues and was living in a shack up on
the hill
and was very vulnerable and somebody
murdered her and decapitated It was a
horrible horrible thing and it was in
the news all the time, you know, the the
latest details.
Well, uh in terms of my career, I
I
wound up as a police photographer in
Kalamazoo, Michigan for 2 years. And I
got the job because I had studied in
Europe at a the
Academy of Fine Arts in Antwerp, long
story, and learned how to
how to print color images, which as I
said, color was a new was just beginning
to take over the or enter the art
photographic world.
So, because I could develop a film, I
was able to get a job as a police
photographer cuz they were transitioning
from doing the crime scenes from black
and white to color, and the policeman
didn't know how to print color. I did,
so I got the job and I spent 2 years
seeing some really life-changing,
gruesome,
difficult things.
So, when So, it's kept my interest in
crime and punishment to this day, those
experiences. So, when this woman was
murdered, I was curious.
What What were her last days like? What
What kind of life did she lead? Who knew
her?
How did What did they think of her? And
I went up there I started going up there
and of course
I was scared cuz
this murder had been committed there. We
knew from the newspaper that there a lot
of the drug trade was there and
homicides as they were in Bloomington is
there's not a lot, it's not like
Chicago, but it was
you know, that's where the crime was.
So, I took a really, really, really
large student of mine with me and we go
every week and I would photograph and we
go back the next week and I'd give
prints to everybody that I'd
photographed.
And all of a sudden I became known as
the picture man. And so, everyone the
kids would see me down the block and
they say,
"Hey, picture man."
>> [laughter]
>> "Come Come see my sister just had a
baby. Come take a picture." You know,
and I I became this thing, this entity,
this picture man who was documenting
life up in the projects.
And I did that for a number of years.
Uh
and and after a while,
another long story and not
not uninteresting, but not maybe
suitable right in it for right now.
I stopped and went on to to other
things.
Some somewhere around 25 years later,
it occurred to me to
I I'd always been interested in what
happened to the people that I
photographed. This and I
what happened to them? And
um
so I went back.
I decided to teach a photography class
to the at the Boys and Girls Club up on
the hill. And I after every class I'd go
out with a box of old prints and I'd
show them to anybody I would see and I'd
say, "Do you know any of these people?
What's happened to them if you do?" And
finally, after a few weeks, this woman
said, "Oh, that's my sister. I'll take
you to her."
And so that began I I it you know, it's
a ripple effect. If you once you get
one, they they know somebody and then
they know two people and before long I
was re-photographing after a whole
generation. And that was the that became
the Pigeon Hill then and now.
>> So, [snorts]
you know, I I know all this story and I
every time I listen to this, I still
think it's unbelievably cool, right?
Unbelievably. But I want to comment on
something about this. So, what that that
that idea that the then and now, that
you went to see them initially and then
25 years later you go back. So, that
really dovetails so beautifully into
what we talk about all the time on this
podcast and Jeff, you've you've heard me
bore you with this also, but this all
whole idea about the jukebox of time and
how all time exists contemporaneously
and and the way uh I like to look at at
our lives is as our sto- novel. Each
life is a novel. Each life life is a
story. We're the protagonist. We're on
every page. People come in and out. So,
I look at So, we started this
conversation saying how we've known each
other all these years, but there was a
big gap. It's like we So, in the way I
look at this and when I hear your
stories, this is literally what I see. I
see the book laid out in front of me. I
see Jeff and Einar and I on page on
pages 10 to 35 or whatever. And then
from page 35 to page 400,
>> [laughter]
>> there's like a 300. It's just
you know, we weren't part of it.
>> Each of us was not part of the other of
each of ours story. So, if we look at
each of our novels, I wasn't in there
for I wasn't in yours, Jeff. You weren't
in mine. Einar wasn't in mine. And you
know, we weren't in Einar's so and so.
But, then the book continues, right? And
all of a sudden you get to page 300 and
who shows up again? Einar. Shows up in
your book and then 50 pages later I show
up in your book. And so, this is the
what's so cool about about how life
works. This is the the message I think
we try to
deliver as often as we can is that
the way to look at to the best way to
look at life to make it to understand it
to is to see the whole story all at once
cuz it exists all at once. And so, you
couldn't have predicted on page five
when you were a little kid all these
things that have happened to you in your
career. No way in the world would
anybody that we knew say, "Jeff Wallin
is going to turn out to be a
very famous, internationally famous
recognized, award-winning photographer
with works in some of the major museums
of the world. And also, by the way, he's
going to be a tenured professor for many
years and go on and on and on and on and
on." Nobody in a million years If I had
said that to you when we were playing in
your house, you would have looked at me
and thought I was crazy, right? But,
this is the beauty of it. It's all part
of the same story. It's So, I watched
this and I look at the three of us now.
I can see you guys, you can see me.
Obviously, the listeners can't, but I
see the whole story. I see the whole
movie. I see the whole book. And I love
it. I think it's it's so um, for me so
inspiring. It makes me want to continue
to do what I can do in my life. Just as
all three of us, honestly, it's
interesting. And of all the people we
went to school with, who were our age,
we're still all three of us are still
pretty active in whatever it is we have
chosen to do in our lives. Right? It's
It's It's kind of a cool thing. But
because we all share the same idea that
it's a limited time engagement, you
know, the gun goes off, go as fast as
you can, do as much as you can. And then
when the gun goes off then then when the
then when the final whistle blows, okay,
you know, so so be it, right? So, I I
find this to me this is such an
inspiring conversation. I don't mean to
take away from from all the things
you're talking about. But I wanted to
just throw that in there because I think
that's really the lesson we get from
what looking at our friendship is that
this the looking at life is an as a as
an entity, that time is an entity, it's
a thing, it's not moving, it's not
flowing, it just is. The whole book is
there all the time. And when you
appreciate that, it makes your it makes
every moment of your life so much more
meaningful. Every moment is important.
Anyway, enough of that.
>> Well, I love your concept, yeah, of the
aerial view and
throughout
you're also amazing and of course your
podcast listeners know this, but
you're not just a well-regarded I
remember I just I was just watching
public TV
40 or 50 years ago or some sometime ago
and all of a sudden you're being
interviewed on
public TV
for something you were doing with
radiology.
And I was like, wait a second. That's
Mark.
>> [laughter]
>> And and so, both of you are doing
amazing things, but the concept of,
you know, of the aerial view and looking
at time differently than you know,
than the way we
have to learn to do so and do so most
people is really beautiful and and
creates
>> bring meaning to every moment. That's
the point. Every page counts. You can't
pull out a page of the book and expect
the story to continue the same. I just
think it's so cool. You know, it's
funny. I look at you, too. Now, you're
not allowed to comment, right? There's
no commenting here.
I'm just going to say something. When I
look at you, too, I look at the careers
you've had, the life you had, and I will
tell you that if I had a I don't want to
rank us, but I would rank me third. And
I don't want That's why I said you can't
comment, right? Cuz it's so impressive
to me what you guys have done. You And
I'll tell you why. You didn't have a
script. And you didn't have a script.
She didn't know what she was going to
do. She didn't know It's just like you.
And the two of you have just dedicated
yourself to improving the world in such
a beautiful way without a script. I had
a script. Medicine has a script. You
just follow the You just just follow the
yellow brick road, keep your nose to the
to the grindstone, work hard, don't be
stupid, and you'll get to the end of the
road, right? You'll get there. You guys
didn't have a yellow brick road. It was
so You were in the middle of this random
universe, and you just figured it out
and end up with these amazingly
uh creative and uh and important and
valuable uh lives and careers. So,
that's why you're not allowed to
comment. I just wanted to say that. It
was a lot It's a lot easier for me than
it was for the two of you in many ways.
So, bravo.
>> let me tell you what I think. And thank
you for that. I That's lovely.
Not true in my case, but lovely anyway.
But but here's I kept thinking this
morning about the three of us.
And the thing that I kept coming back
to, and this is going to sound
ridiculous, but we're sort of We're all
healers.
In our own way, we've been trying to
heal the things that needed healing.
You, Mark, obviously
heal us from disease.
Uh Jeff heal us from sorrow and hung and
homelessness and and
and deprivation, and me from hunger. We
tried to heal the things that needed
healing, and I think you guys,
particularly, not me, but have done
that. And I I'm proud proud to be
friends with you. And I think what I've
learned most of all from this is to hold
our friends because even if we there are
time lapses, we haven't spoken for 35
years, we're still friends and we get
back together and the value of
friendship may be one of the most
valuable things that we can ever have
and we need to hold on to those
friendships which is why I'm trying to
get Jeff to move here so we can all get
together again.
>> Amen. Amen.
I think that's that's absolutely true.
Jeff and I both our eyes got widened
when you said you guys but not me in
terms of making difference. Let me tell
you something. Let me tell you the
commonality we have. The commonality has
and I don't know where it comes from,
some place very deep the kind of things
you and that you and I talk about all
the time but we're all trying to fix the
world. We have a sense that we have a
responsibility to fix the world and we
we we we know we know we can't do it. We
know we're not going to completely fix
the world but each one of us in our own
way
has been and continues to try to fix the
world and that is what is missing in our
society in many ways that the me the me
me society the selfie society the the
victim society that I'm owed this I'm
owed that. That's not only is that
never going to work it will never bring
joy like you talk about joy and never
bring happiness and fulfillment but it
but you miss out when you when when
you're not trying to do that you miss
out on
grabbing the great value of life and so
I think that's what we've all done. Now
again, we all recognize we're not going
to we're not going to we're going to our
day will come we'll be gone and the
world will still go on and it won't
maybe we made it a tiny bit better but
we haven't really changed the overall
course but you still try cuz that's why
we're here.
>> You are you are. I know we're running
out of time. We have it's too bad we
could do this show for several more
hours but I I I just wanted to read
something in a way to end it and then
maybe Jeff can
go on. And it was something again I get
back to homelessness cuz
the the the impulse to treat
homelessness as an embarrassing
predicament that is best forgotten
should be one to be able to overcome. It
undercuts the dignity and resilience of
the people who experience it. They are
who they are, regardless of where they
are, regardless of where they have, in
the full sense of the phrase, found
themselves.
Mark Klein,
Jeffrey Wolin, you have found
yourselves.
I thank you for that.
Final word, Jeff.
>> You guys are the best. I'm as you know,
I'm one of your biggest fans for the
podcast. It's terrific and
inspirational and I I learn new things
every every time.
Um
Enid, your work with uh with with hunger
and seniors and not just hunger, but the
the way that older people when they're
when they uh as they age and lose
relationships and friends and spouses
and stuff, the way uh you've helped to
address their loneliness, which is
at least as important as as their
as their hunger.
And I just think, you know, what you're
doing is amazing. I'm proud to to know
you and I I talk about you to my friends
now. And with the two of you,
it just is so clear
there is nothing like old friends. Yes,
we have all of us have very very good
very dear friends that we made five
years ago, last week, 20 years ago, from
college.
But the the friends that you made when
you were growing up,
that's a very special relationship.
There's nothing like that.
>> I agree. And you know, you know what's
funny?
Uh I I do we all of us keep in touch
with some other people from our from our
younger years. And the thing is you we
know each other when we were pure. You
know, there's no there was nothing it
was just the way it was. That's who you
were. And we know the we we know that
core of that nugget of that person. We
cannot be fooled, right? We know who
each other is because we've seen it from
the earliest days. It It's fantastic.
Jeff, I can't thank you enough. Um we
all feel exactly the same way. I would
just say that uh I
rekindling the three of us rekindling
this friendship has been so meaningful,
not only fun, but really meaningful. Uh
and again, it makes me it it energizes
me when I see you two guys continuing to
do the things you do and and and try and
make the impact that you have and
continue to make the impact, then it
makes me want to get up next tomorrow
morning and keep going also. So, thank
you so much. This has been great. We
will We will end the podcast. We will We
will certainly be talking to each other
very soon, I'm sure.
Anyway, so I'll just end it by saying
thank you all for listening [music] and
we'll see you next time.
>> Peace.
>> Thanks. Love you guys.
>> Love you, too.
>> [music]