Episode 72: An Interview with Mark's Favorite Person

Welcome to Wisdom from the Aerial View, the podcast [music]

for those who wish to crush their anxiety and find meaning and purpose in their lives. [music]

Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, Dr. Klein.

>> Hello, Enid.

>> Well, today special day. Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh we have during our our many many conversations here at the podcast, we've talked about lots of different things. And one of the things that keeps coming up over and over and over again is um how wonderful and how sainted Mark's wife is. Now, I have only met her in the flesh once uh and my but I'm just so delighted that that Mark had an idea. Let's have her join us today. And so, welcome to the show, Deneen. How are you today?

>> Thank you. I'm great. Thank you for having me.

>> Well, we wouldn't have had it any other way. His podcast, so I had to have you. No, but you know, I've been thinking, we were talking prior to this about what we're going to talk about, and I said, I don't know, but but but but we have been talking for a couple of weeks now about the Stoics,

>> and these are folks who really believed in virtue and and what have you. And I I was doing some reading and I read something by Seneca, one of the Stoics, and he said something which made me think of what we should talk a little bit about today. He said, and I quote, "Whoever then understands what is good can also know how to love. But he who cannot distinguish good from bad and things which are neither good nor bad from both, can he possess the power of loving. To love then is only in the power of the wise. Now that means that the two of you are quite wise. [laughter] You love each other.

>> Now, so we're going to talk about a couple of things today, but the first thing I wanted to talk about was love. You've been married now for how many years?

>> 29.

>> 29. That's a lot of loving.

>> Yeah, it is.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> That's a whole lot of loving. And so, I guess I want to ask the point. Let's get right to it. Um, you found each other and um, it was not the first for Mark, but it was the first for you, Deneen. First marriage.

>> No,

>> no, we're not. [laughter] Okay. All right. So, this was the second time around.

>> Second

>> for one of us.

>> Third, eighth. It doesn't matter.

>> You found each other. So, let's talk a little bit, if you would, about love. Why is love important? And why is love one of the virtues in our lives? Who wants to take that one?

>> I think the guest should go first.

>> Oh, aren't you kind? Um, I think that love is important because there are so many potential challenges in life that if love isn't the cornerstone of a relationship, it falls apart very easily. Um, it's such a powerful emotion and if it's present in one form or another as you walk through your day, I think you can meet the challenges and you can certainly overlook, ignore, forgive, etc. But when it's not there, I think those challenges become really magnified. Um, so I would agree that I think love is really a very powerful emotion and it's not just in in a marriage obviously it's in a a connection to a child, a grandchild, a friend, uh a relative especially you know relatives can disappoint and yet if that is the basis of your relationship you tend to overlook things that you normally would not. I is my belief.

>> Yeah. Well said. Well said.

>> I told you she was wise.

>> See, and that's the point, isn't it? Now, she wasn't that wise. She did meet you 29 years ago and [laughter] say I do.

>> It's true.

>> It's true. You know, I say, "How's it every day? I say, "How's it going?" And she says, "So far so good. We'll see."

>> Yeah. But, you know, it's interesting because you do talk about her a lot and on this podcast and even in private. And there's something about her that sparked this in you, this love. What What does love mean to you, Doc?

>> Oh, you know, there a couple things. First of all, I great, as you know, I greatly admire my wife even and she's sitting here looking at us, but she knows that. I tell her all the time.

>> She's good at everything she does. She never does anything halfbaked. It's always 100% and it always turns out great. But what really is amazing, the most amazing is what we talk about on the podcast, but people who listen to this regularly know about her is that she has a some traits that are very uncommon. For instance, she doesn't know what anxiety is. And we talk a lot about anxiety in this podcast. Deneen does not she know she knows the definition, but you can ask her if she's ever experienced anxiety. Go ahead, give it a shot.

>> Actually, we were going to talk about that. I I am gonna get to that because I I imagine somebody who's just

>> never anxious. I I just

>> We'll stick with the We'll stick with the love question first. So,

>> when you really admire the person that you're with and you have great respect for them, that's really important. If you don't like and respect the person you're with, then you got a big problem. So, I'm very fortunate because I have great respect and admiration for her. One, because I said she's good at everything. too. She uh she's a great friend. She's very uh she's super honorable. So all these things add up together and you know why you fall in love with somebody that's a diff that's a little different but how you continue the relationship those things become super important.

>> Yeah. And I understand you don't fight very often either.

>> No.

>> No. I'd say

>> Yeah. I would say I'd say as I said I think I said a couple weeks ago in this podcast we probably had

>> less than a handful of really big fights in 30 years and

>> uh I regret every one of them [laughter] because because you know at the end of the day knows this I mean even if not having a big arm but there's some disagreement I hate it I absolutely hate it right

>> and going looking back at this at the handful of bad arguments we've had over the You know, I absolutely could have done better. I get that. You know, I won't speak for Deneen, but certainly I take a lot of responsibility for those, but because but like I said, they're very very rare. We haven't had I can't even remember the last time we had, you know, a big, you know, something that lasted more than five minutes. So, right, Nene.

>> Yeah. No, I can't either, actually.

>> Well, that's great. Is it that you just put it aside and say, "Well, uh, we'll do better the next time." Or how how does one prevent these kinds of things from happening? I mean, we all we all have our own personalities. We all have our own traits. We all have our likes and dislikes. Um, I guess be interestingly enough, you have a lot of likes, but you also have a lot of things that you like, Deneen, that Mark doesn't like, etc., etc. Uh, you're into flowers. You're What I think our listeners ought to understand is that you're an amazing woman when it comes to flowers. you're a um I mean I'm not into fl I'm that's not my thing but I think it's wonderful that you're a judge. You judge flower shows. That's astounding.

>> Yeah, I do. I you know I started studying floral design as a hobby many many years ago. And one of the things that I like to do if I want to learn something and I that's sort of one of my favorite things to do is learn a topic and really go deep into it. Uh I joined a garden club. I took courses. I took online courses. I became a judge. I became a master judge. And then recently I've judged the Philadelphia Flower Show a couple times. Um, but I've become extremely interested in Japanese flower arranging which is called Ikebana and I recently became an instructor level uh for ikabana. I it just you know it brings a lot of joy and peace especially the ikabana side of flower arranging because you don't need a lot of material you study the growth habit of plants and that dictates to a large extent how you design with them and I find that to be incredibly interesting. This is probably one of my favorite times of year going from a garden that's really not very attractive to every day something new popping out in the springtime. So I uh that's fascinating and maybe that [clears throat] is sort of in that's who you are. I mean everything is very mild and very mellow. Uh there is no angst m much in your life. Tell me about that because we talked this is a show about the aerial view and about trying to find meaning and purpose in your life and to crush anxiety and you have obviously found the key to that about crushing anxiety. Tell me how you do it. Tell me why you don't find things the way I do sort of so much angst in your life. Tell me how you do that.

>> Well, I think it has to start with two things. First of all, I was raised in a very loving, very um engaged family and the basis of our personal family, our our nuclear family and my extended family was the church. So, I was raised in a Christian faith and truly lived that life and still try to. Um and I had a mother who although she died at 61 very very young was just an exemplary role model. She um she very rarely got angry. I never heard her utter a cuss word. Uh, and she was always more of a if there was a really, you know, difficult situation to get through or something that could normally provoke anxiety or anger in someone, she never looked at it that way. And I think it was partly the faith um, and partly her personality of let's fix it as opposed to worry about it. And so when you grow up in that environment, um I think it at least for me personally, uh it was a direct transfer because that's the way I look at life. I don't get anxious about things because I'm much more of a what can I do to fix it person or how should I look at it as opposed to what am I going to do? How you know how is it going to affect me. Um um I think as human beings we we very rarely affect things around us to a huge extent. So it's much more how we deal with it than how we affect it. You are talking about something Deneen that I think is really important. Uh and that's this question of faith. We've been on this podcast for a long time now and we've discussed issues of faith in in different ways, but what you're talking about is something that I think we really need to explore some some more deeply because you and and Mark are of different faiths and I think that's great too. I think that's important uh that we have that something that we can we can join together with our hands. Even though we might have different political philosophies, we might have different religions, we might have different color, it doesn't matter. Talk to me a little bit about how faith has uh been such a huge part of your life and what that's taught you. And maybe we're talking about that faith and Mark talks about the aerial view. Is is in in your mind faith part of that whole notion of aerial view where there is this non-emphasis on anxiety? Talk to me a little bit Deneen if you will about faith.

>> I think it's 100% um that perspective. uh when you look at your own behavior in your own life, you make decisions uh in the face of anxiety, in the face of uh complications etc etc and I think without for me personally without my faith it would be very difficult because it it is the belief in a higher power. It is the belief that, as Mark would say, on the street view, it looks one way, but the promise and the hope of those of us that are faithful and have a have a belief know that this isn't it. That um what we experience on a day-to-day basis, if it's negative, I don't happen to think life is negative. Uh but for those people that do, I I I would say that faith is a huge benefit because it takes the burden of responsibility somewhat away from them to make these decisions and place it in the Lord's hands. That's the way I look at it. Um I if you have a belief in the aerial view, I I think it could do something very similar. Um you know, I don't calculate. It's just a way of life for me. It's not something I think about. It's probably just an ingrain part of my belief system. And so therefore, you know, if someone cuts me off in traffic, which is so silly, you know, I tend to think, "Oh gosh, you're in a hurry. Go ahead, buddy." Uh as opposed to be angry. And and I look at many things, little teeny things that can upset someone on a day-to-day basis that way. Uh or if somebody says something foolish on television, I think the same thing. Okay. Well, that's your opinion. Go with it. I It probably isn't going to do much for you, but I get it. Um and we started talking before uh the broadcast. I don't know if you want to bring this into it about what happened last night uh with the correspondence dinner, and I think sort of the same thing. How sad for every individual in that room that they were put in a position of wondering whether or not they would be harmed by a reckless ill individual who spent a lot of time thinking about how they might carry out something. And I really felt horrible for the journalists and the people hiding and the the terrible feeling they must have had. Uh I don't think a lot of people even in that room with faith were thinking well if this is my day this is my day which a lot of us as Christians feel but h how sad it is that somebody's anger

>> would impact them in such a terrible way.

>> Let me ask let me jump in for a minute because there's two things I want Deneen to get to. So the first is um why she has no anxiety. Why she why? Because D, I think it's fair to say you've never really experienced anxiety. Correct.

>> No, probably not.

>> Right. So, we'll take that as a no. Uh, so that's one question. Why don't you feel anxiety? And the other question I want to get to is what I want to talk about after Deneen's done is what the aerial view, how the aerial view compares to faith. So, first Deneen, um, tell explain because so many people say to me, "Wait a minute. you tell me that your wife doesn't have a bad day. And I go, "No, she doesn't have a bad five minutes." Like, she doesn't know what anxiety really is. So, why don't you explain to people why you think you don't have anxiety and what it is in your life that prevents you from having anxiety or keeps you from having anxiety?

>> Well, it's a great question, and I'm not sure I know. Um, I think that I look at life as a gift and I look at my life as a very blessed life. Now, that doesn't mean that I've always had everything I've ever wanted, but I I definitely try to wake up every day and think about all the things I can accomplish, all the things I can experience, all the people I can touch. And my my desire is to make that a very positive experience for me and for anyone I come in contact with. Um there are bumps, there are complications, no question. Uh but why don't I have anxiety? I think it's a learned experience, believe it or not. I think that um the more you confront and or are placed in a position that could necessarily bring anxiety, if you have this characteristic or trade or belief, it's just a practiced experience. You know, I started out my career as a nurse. That's very anxiety-provoking for a lot of people, but I just looked at it as a fun experience and a way to help people. Uh, I then went into sales and I went into sales at a time when I was the only woman in many companies and that came with its own set of challenges. I also traveled for a living which meant that I either drove or flew places. There was no map quest. There was no uh Waze app. I would fly into a location. I would get an old-fashioned paper map, which Mark makes fun of me because I still love those when I travel. And I would figure Yeah, exactly. But they maybe that existed with AAA for long trips, but I wasn't necessarily that engaged to get those. But, you know, I would fly into a city, a lot of times a small city, rent a car, figure out how to get places, navigate through a most of the time a hospital. Those would be crippling for so many people, but you and I'm not saying it was difficult. It was difficult, but it was a great character building um exercise for me that I just got very comfortable. You want me to go somewhere, just tell me what time I need to be there. I'll make it happen. Um,

>> I have to jump in. Yes.

>> Okay. You may She's She's understating her superpower.

>> Uh, because it's not that she could just learn to read a map and that was okay. So, things that cause anxiety for most people, n when something happens to a family member, uh, or somebody you care about, uh, you never go off the rails. You never lose it. You never say, "Oh my god. Oh my god." and she never weep about it. So, so to explain to explain to our listeners what what it is about you that that makes you think I don't need to. It's not going to help. Why would I do that? I know that. But I need I need you to explain that your philosophy about why it why there's no point in doing that.

>> Because there's work to be done. And that's the way I look at it. Uh I have a dear dear brother who was recently diagnosed with cancer and it's not a great diagnosis. It's not a terrible diagnosis. I do have faith and hope but it's not a great one. And my initial response is okay. This isn't ideal but what are we going to do to have the best outcome? And that's the way I look at most situations. How can I help? What can I do? What can be done? And if anything, you know, is available to me to do, I'd like to do it rather than think ring my hands, go to the worst possible

>> scenario.

>> What about if there's a bad outcome?

>> Well, what can I do about it?

>> There you go.

>> What? my falling apart or not being there for the person or the people around that person isn't really going to help if I'm not able to comfort or help or direct or provide meals or transportation. I mean, I just I guess I' I've always sort of looked at and maybe that's from being in nursing at a young age or the hospital at a young age. you know, you don't want a nurse or a physician or a therapist falling apart. You want them to tell you what to do. And I'm very good at that. Um, I think that uh I think that's probably

>> I must interject. I must interject. So, when I first met Deneen's dad uh unfortunately passed away, great guy, funny guy, he looks at me one day, this is before we're married, and he says, "Mark, do you know what Deneen wanted to be when she grew up?" I said, "What?" He said in charge. [laughter]

>> He sure did. He probably wasn't too wrong. Um, you know,

>> so let's so let's take what Deneen just said and move it to the aerial view. The whole reason that the aerial view in it's not like I said I've said many times it's not a new idea. Over the centuries, eons, many others have had the same uh concept and have called it different things. Uh, but when I realized how Deneen could do this and she had this true superpower that she'd got upset about pretty much nothing. I mean, if I did something stupid, she might get mad at me for 5 minutes, but that's about it. But she never really freaks out. She never panics. Um, and she doesn't really get upset. She doesn't break into tears. She doesn't fall apart. Uh, and I wonder, how do you get that way? And a couple things, she never has any regret. Do you regret anything in your life, Deneen? Oh, I'm sure I could have done things differently, but regret's kind of a waste. Yeah,

>> there you go. Regret's a waste. Excellent. Right. So, so I said, "Okay, how do you get to where Deneen is if you don't have that faith? Let's say you weren't born with unbelievable parents or a mother who was who read the Bible every day and who uh never uttered a unkind word and was super loving. What happens if you didn't have that or what happens if you're not part of a church or some community that that of faith that gives you that? Can you get to the same place? And the answer is yes. It's the aerial view. I like to say religion that Deneen has, it's a shortcut. It's like you you you pass, you know, you just go zoom immediately to the to victory because that if you really embrace it the way Deneen does and other people in this world do, then it's very comforting. It's a super source of comfort. But if you don't have that, Deneen's nodding her head for those of you can't see. If you don't have that, um, is there another way to get there? And the answer is yes. That's the aerial view. That's what we've been talking about. So to me it's very interesting that the aerial view which is based on a lot of scientific concepts we've talked about that brings you to the same place as faith which is a really good thing. So um you know I said she has a superpower. She's an amazing person. People are sick of hearing me say that because I talk about all the time. I do want to add one thing. You know, Deneen said when when earlier on when two people have have love and they really care about each other, the little things, okay, you let them go. And I and to me, I I always call that keeping the tank full. So, for instance, we will do things for each other every day, right? Every day. So, she's finished her breakfast, I pick up her dishes and I'll and I'll do her dishes. She'll fold my, you know, my laundry or something. I We do things to each other every day and we don't keep score, right? And you do that because you love the other person, right? It it's not a burden, it's a joy. I like, you know, Deneen makes a bed in a certain way. And I would I would never make the bed this way. She's got 9 million pillows and all that, right? So most guys would never do this. But when she's not around or she if it's my if I'm making the bed cuz she's gone or something uh left early, I will make the bed exactly as she would make the bed so that when she comes home, she sees the bed the way she likes the bed. See? And that's a very important thing if you so that I call that keeping the tank full. Deneen mentioned it earlier, but I think that's very important. That's what love is. It's don't keep score. You know, do things because you care about each other. Uh and she knows, everybody knows. We've been together over 30 years. I still have a major crush on her because she's an amazing person, right? And I think today people have gotten a chance to to start to hear that. Anyway, enough of me talking. Enid, your turn.

>> You're very sweet.

>> I feel like we're playing the dating game here [laughter] soon.

>> Yeah. And I won. And I won. We did.

>> You both won. I think you both won. I think we both hit the jackpot. Uh I can see it. I I can feel it. I can sense it.

>> It's interesting to me that you again and Deneen, you were born you were from the south. Yes. Where are you from?

>> Correct. I'm from Norfolk, Virginia, but I have grandparents that lived in the south and right southern ties for sure.

>> Right. And you married and you married this northerner, this this northern guy. He's got a crazy accent. I can't even understand him half the time. Got this New York [laughter] accent. I have no idea what he's saying. Oh, wait. I grew up in the same town.

>> Yes. Exactly.

>> But look at all the You have all these differences and yet you've come together. I I'm going to sound like a pastor, but you've come together in love.

>> True. [laughter]

>> True.

>> Come together in understanding that even though there are differences, there is more that is alike than is different. and that we do need to say it doesn't matter that you're from the south or you're from the north or you're Christian and you're Jewish. It doesn't matter. What matters is that we are on this earth together. We we're only going around once and as Mark always says we're here we have we're here for a purpose and whatever that purpose might be whatever that purpose might be we have to live it. Wouldn't you agree that that's true guys? Yeah, I think I think it's definitely true. You know, it's very it's kind of it reminds me of something my mother said. My mother was very ill by the time I met Mark. And she got to know him, but not super well. And uh I full disclosure, I had been married twice before, very short marriages each time, but not particularly interested in getting married again necessarily. And I met Mark and Mark came as a package because he had three young children. And I thought my parents might say to me, "You have lost your mind." [laughter] Uh, A, he is Jewish, which was not a problem, but he wasn't a Christian. And B, he had three small children. And I'll never forget my mother. My mother said, 'Yes, but he is the chosen people. And so for my family, him being Jewish wasn't an issue at all because as a as a true born-again Christian that you guys are the chosen ones, so we're very lucky to be in your company. And they really felt that way. And I love my children, all four of them. And I from day one, I always felt like the most important thing in my relationship with Mark, dating and marriage, was going to be those kids because they needed stability and love. And I was blessed. They were fantastic. They didn't have to accept me the way that they did from day one. And to this day, I have four children, seven grandchildren. It is a blessed life.

>> I love it. I love it. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's uh my kids hit the jackpot. So um it's true. Yeah. But that's because of her and this also is another expression of of her of her view of the world, right? Which is to give. So uh there are those people who give like you and there are those people who take. Uh and of course the three of us know one thing we know for sure that giving is a million times better than taking. It's so much better than receiving. In fact, one of my many faults is uh Deneen is going to laugh, but is that I'm a lousy gift receiver. Right. It took me years and years and years to be able to accept a gift even from my lovely wife. And um

>> True.

>> But Right. [laughter] True. But I' I've learned I've learned but to but from for my three kids who are indistinguishable to Deneen from the one the one child we have together. We have we we look at we each of us feel we have four kids and that's how it is. Um uh but for them it's like they have been on this receiving end of this uh incredibly generous person. So they all all my kids our kids and their spouses all adore Deneen because why wouldn't she? She only she gives gives gives does does does and asks zero in return. Right. And that's I think a really another thing I've learned from her. Definitely. I've learned so much from her as, you know, people listen to this podcast have heard. But that's another thing that just, you know, just keep giving. Just keep giving. And uh it's not even that it comes back to you. It's that that's the reward in itself. We talk about this all the time. If you want to, if you're having a bad day, go help somebody else. But [snorts] but to have somebody who's just uh in your life who's just asks nothing in return and just gives to you, well, that's that's quite quite a blessing for the for the kids. And I think that's why you wanted her to be on this podcast today. And I'm glad you did because I think it's uh important to see and to hear from the exact person that you keep talking about how marvelous it is not to have the anxiety that the rest of us maybe not Mark but does. Um I see we've basically run out of time so I want to end it on my part and I always give Mark the last word. I do you give him the last word in your household in Come on tell me. Did you give him the last word

>> if I'm not listening?

>> Oh god, I got you. I like that. [laughter] I like that. But let me let me end sort of where I began. I'll go back to Seneca. I'll go back to our stoics. He said, "Nature bore us related to one another. She instilled in us a mutual love and made us compatible. Let us hold everything in common. We stem from a common source. Our fellowship is very similar to an arch of stones which would fall apart if they did not reciprocally if they did not reciprocally support each other. You guys do that. You support each other. It's important. And I thank you for being on this podcast with us today, Deneen. I I do. And I I thank you for putting up with him. I I shouldn't say that, but um he's a good man. Mark, as always, I'll give you the final word.

>> Oh, you're so sweet. Well, I I always knew that uh I must have done something right in my life cuz God gave me Deneen. And uh for that, I will be forever grateful. And uh those of you who've been listening to the podcast know [music]

now know why I talk about it the way I do. So, so Deneen, thank you so much for participating with us today. [music]

Two of my favorite women I'm looking at right now. And uh thank you all for listening. We'll see you next time.

>> Pleasure. Thank you. Peace.