Episode 66: A Fascinating Interview with Ed Hajim

Hi, welcome to Wisdom from the Aerial View, the podcast for those who wish to crush their anxiety and find meaning and purpose in their lives. You might notice that I made the introduction this week instead of Enid because Enid unfortunately is under the weather. So, for the first time since we initiated this podcast a year and a half ago, Enid is not joining us. But we have a guest today. Uh we have a very interesting guest, a very accomplished guest uh named Ed Hum. I will introduce Ed uh this way. He is uh he started out as a uh I won't tell you how he started out. I'm going to let him tell you how how his early life started out because that's a fascinating part of the story. He was a Wall Street executive, very successful financially, has been a a role model and a mentor to many many uh young people and people at university levels and so on. He continues to do this at this point in his life. uh and he's written two books uh which are designed to help people find their own way through their life and I'll let Ed talk about that. His first book was called On the Road Less Traveled: An Unlikely Journey from the Orphanage to the Boardroom.

We'll get to that book second, I think, but I do want Ed to spend some time on it because his story is quite fantastic. Uh his second book, uh it was called The Island of the Four Pas. And I'm going to let it uh talk quite a bit about that because it's very instructive and I think our listeners are going to really enjoy uh his particular point of view and his approach. So without further ado, I'd like to welcome my friend and uh uh super interesting person Ed Hum. Hello Ed. >> Mark, thanks for having me. You it's always great talking to you. I have to be on a podcast. I'll just call you up and chat with you because you're always interested and you're stimulating and and the stuff that you do is the kind of thing that I love to read. Uh I don't know really where to start. But I can start you start you at the end of the story which is now uh I basically am on a presumptuous crusade to add a dimension to university education. Now you can sort of try to absorb what I just said. I'm going to change academia. You know you can't do that because I was chairman of the board of trustees for eight years at the University of Russia. So I know the problems.

But I basically believe that education has two parts to it or there two kinds of education. One is that education teaches you how to make a living and a second education teach you how to make a life. And that used to be education and parental involvement and all that kind of stuff. But what's happened basically is universities do a reasonable good job of teaching kids how to make a living or at least approach making a living. But they don't do a great job at least formally and teaching them how to make a life. That's usually done in the dormitories, the dining rooms. It's done informally. So it's kind of messy. What I want to do is to do that formally. So from with my book called the island of the four Ps, I've developed a vocabulary for your inner voice for making decisions. Find your passions, find your principles, find your partners, find your plans. There may be other words, but these have been basically good for me. It's what I use to make decisions through my life. And I'll talk about my life and how successful or you know how it progressed through my entire life. And also I wanted them to recognize there are four realms of life. Self, family, work, and community.

Community work, giving back. And these eight words I think I've I've taken now and created a course for freshman or seniors in high school where there were eight sessions starts off with each of the young students telling their stories to each other and then going from there focusing on those eight words. And uh you know it it's like anything else in in the world. You go out with the dog food to see where the dog's going to eat it and you offer it out and it looks to me like there's enormous latent demand. I've been at this for a couple years. I' I've not been turned down in any place at all. We have 10 institutions working on it now. Very excellent school in Greenwich, Connecticut. It's a very high end.

Brunswick is now using as required of course for hit seniors at the other end and NJPAC and Newark which is mostly firstgen kids they're using it in their pro their you know high school 14 to 18 group I have eight universities and Horatio is using it for its scholarship so I'm kind of excited about it and I think I may have a breakthrough because Stonybrook has just started to use it and of course the Sunni system is like 34 schools and I've talked to the I had a presentation to the career counselors there and it may work. Now, it's not my course. I I have set up a syllabus and a curriculum, a skeleton because each of these institutions must take that skeleton or that curriculum or that syllabus and add to it or change it to fit the unique needs of their particular uh student body. And I think that's starting to happen now. the work done at one particular university now University of Rochester which started with it.

They have a hundred over I guess 200 kids in 10 sections and they basically now have innovated them into where each kid in his in his freshman year or whenever he takes the course has to basically create three life scenarios three road maps for life and it really is an important thing because if you start with that way you can decide what you're going to test and actually I can use my own life that experiment when I was a freshman I signed up as a chemical engineer because I had to get a And so they they got jobs. But in the middle of my freshman year, I decided to be a physicist because that sounded good. So I took an advanced physics course my sophomore year. All the engineers took engineering physics which was a little easier. You know within about no I don't know three or four or five weeks I looked around and said these aren't my people. And by this way why they're also getting my brains beat out. So I knew that I was out of my league. I got my D+ and I left. So but be but I want able to test that. Now, I didn't formally go through who I wanted to be. So, in other words, what I want a freshman to ask is who am I? Where do I want to go? How do I expect to get there?

How does the road look? And if they actually have time for it, which is the fifth B purpose, they can ask if I'm going to get there, am I going to be happy about that? And with life being changing as much as it has, that's a very difficult experience. Now, I believe opportunity is greater than it's ever been, but also complexity is about as great as it's ever been. So, you need more time to formally figure out which path you're going to take. And I think what's the problem with most monikers, you know, engineer or physicist or whatever it is, it's such a broad continuum. You got to go out and test it. And I think in the four years of college and then graduate school, be able to test various things. And I look back through my life, I did a brilliant job of testing. And I finally got to the right answer at age, you know, 26, 28 when I was at graduate school. But I sensed it a lot though. You know, I tested in my junior year. I went up and I worked on the St. Lawrence Seaway because I got fascinated with big projects, you know, dams and electrical plants and so forth. And I got up there and I love I talked the guy into giving me a job. I spent six weeks up there and I love the work.

I mean, blasting in the afternoon at 4:00, throwing cement at 200 feet was great. But then I realized you had to live in a trailer for 10 years. And the guys that I talked to said this is the best location ever. We're usually in the, you know, the hills of Pakistan or the jungles of Venezuela. So that was not a good idea. And of course, I spent both my summers at the the Harvard Business School working on being an international businessman. I went to Belgium. I learned French, worked for Belgium Chemical Company. I realized that was much too early to be an international business. Then I decided, well, I won't take over a company. think of our country. So I went down to Nicaragua and we helped we set up a they called a negotiius a I mean negotiius a business school down there and I spent a whole four or five months down there realized that was not a good idea. So I tested out that's what I want young people to do. Find out who you are and you know what I convince young people which is I give them a very simple story. I said when you're 16 to 18 years old you basically are a combination of your genes and your environment. You have no control who whoever you are.

But like my man in the book lands on an island at 18 or thereabouts for the first time in his life or her life. You get a chance to say this is the part of me I want to keep. This is part of me I really like to eliminate or at least reduce. And these are the parts of me I need I want to add. Maybe I need to add. I'll stop there. I can go into a little my background if you want but you know we'll get we'll get to all that. So you mentioned so there's so much first of all I was I'm thinking so for those listeners uh uh just let me let me tell you that when Ed wrote his first book I uh I did interview him before for a bookstore chain in in Chicago and it was we had a great time. I actually rewatched that interview, Ed. I I really enjoyed it. >> Have fun. Yeah. >> And then, you know, we've kept in touch, but I'm realizing now that I made a big mistake that I should have I should call you more often. And I'll tell you why. Cuz what you're talking about, you created a curriculum primarily for college students to help them learn about life because you're right. Nobody teaches you about life. When we were growing up, well, actually, not you because you you have a different situation.

I want to get to that. But for many of us of my generation, you know, we had parents uh and neighbors who who uh helped grow us up literally, right? Who trained us. So where I grew up, if an adult in your neighborhood told you to do something, it was equivalent to a parent telling you to do something. >> Yeah. >> Can imagine that now. So we had we had we had the village and we had our parents and we learned what we consider to be fundamental rules of how to treat people, how to live and so on. And what's happened now unfortunately in so many places all over the world and and a lot in the United States kids grow up without parents without a parent in communities that are anything but supportive uh and so they they don't learn the fundamental things. The first book I wrote uh which is now over 20 years ago was called um which is a which is a self-help book and the title was what do I do now a handbook for life >> because I realized that I had at that time I was running a medical office.

I had 60 employees and I realized many of them were were young people who did not have the benefit of the education the the not the um detailed education not the curriculum education but the life education that I had about how to live how to treat people you know what's important in life respect honoring your elders all these kind of things that seem so simple to us but are not but are often not taught so I applaud you I absolutely applaud you for doing this for spending your so much time and effort uh to create a curriculum. And I'm thinking the reason I wish I had had talked to you more often. We we hopefully we'll be able to do this after this podcast is because I've often just wanted to create a curriculum for middle school and high school for these really fundamental things because we are teaching kids not only we not teaching them the right things, we're teaching them the wrong things. If you look on uh Netflix or Instagram or Tik Tok, there's a good chance if that's where you get your knowledge and education >> difference. We didn't have that that and that's much more seductive than have your mother or father talk.

First of all, you right there 50% divorce in the in the country. Also, parents are much more busy. It's much more difficult. They're learning from screens and the screens basically don't do that. I mean, I tell them not only don't they teach them, they teach them the wrong things. You know, >> I go back to my, you know, you say I didn't have it. I did have it. I I went to a Catholic school and the nuns made it very clear the golden rule or else. And they taught me with the golden ruler and if I didn't also they needed to be very clear that if I did the right things I go to this really good place. If I did the wrong things I go to this other place. Now turn later on I sort of questioned that but that was inbred in me of the idea of being the ten commandments. I mean we repeated those things every every morning almost. >> So let's do so let's do this.

What what what I'd like to do is I want you to spend five minutes telling people who have not read your your first book uh on the road less traveled about your life just in a few minutes because because that will help explain why you have spent your or help explain why you've spent so much effort now in your life trying to help other people live more fulfilling meaningful lives. As you probably heard at the beginning of this podcast, this podcast was people who want to find meaning and purpose in their lives, right? You're the perfect guest, right? because you've had you no you you are you've done this on your own by and large you've overcome a tremendous amount of obstacles and a lot of adversity which I know is has kind of helped you along the way you consider a gift in many ways but why don't you tell people really quickly uh about from the day you were born until you actually got let's say to the University of Rochester I was you know I I'm one of the most grateful people in the world I mean I'm the I'm grateful one of my principles right now is is being grateful I mean I try to think every day to do something good for somebody because I've lived the American dream.

I started out, you know, I was I was born in 19 in too long ago 1936 to on my birth certificate says to an unemployed father and a homemaker mother. My father was a immigrant came over in 1900 became very successful. He was involved in something called radio was technology at the time 2932 he lost everything lost all he had he had houses even had an airplane and so forth lost everything and his mother died which he was very close to and he's basically broke in 1933 and decided either commit suicide or drive across country to California where the streets were pay for gold on the way across country stopped at the cousin's house fell in love with his 18year-old 15 years as his junior woman they went on to California Streets weren't paved with gold. Dad had trouble. Dad had demons plus had trouble keeping a job. But I was born and that was supposedly a good thing that happened. But three years after I was born, my mother decided he'd had it. This guy was a, you know, very difficult to live with. He couldn't keep a job. And so she actually in the 1939 got a divorce, which was shocking. And she took me from Los Angeles. We were living in St. Louis where her parents were.

And he got $5 a week in alimony and child support. and uh Sunday visiting rides. So, he gets in his Roadster about 3 months later, does the three-day trip, picks me up on Sunday, and instead of taking me to the movies or to a park, gets back on Highway 66, which is on the front of the book, and essentially kidnaps me. And subsequently, some short period afterward said, "My mother died and I'll never see her again." And if you want to find out what happened, you have to read the book. Uh dad and I lived together for the next two years. He was a merchant marine radio operator. And so I lived with I didn't have any family. I lived with friends or neighbors, hotels, motel, and so forth. When the war broke out, he was supposedly drafted or volunteered to become an officer in the United States Merch Marine. And I got put into the Catholic welfare system. And the next five years, I was in five Catholic welfare situations. The first of which was cold and and and and abusive. Actually, it was it was almost Dickinsonian and they sort of progressed and finally at the fifth one that they act nice people. It's only 6 months though and I was having finally having a good time actually.

She tried to get me to play the piano. They were wonderful people. She really wanted to have another son but the war ended. My dad wanted me back and so I got on another airplane alone and flew across country and we lived in the YMCA on 34th Street for that summer which was, you know, there weren't many Harvard graduates there as I remember. It was kind of a crazy place. But I I learned the I learned the subways and uh then the next uh we went to Coney Island lived in a hotel with him room and while he looked for landbased work and he couldn't find any. It was a wasn't bad for year for me. I was PS 106.

I did pretty well and but he had a really tough time and then he decided to go back to sea and so he had found a neighbor lady to take me and he decided he had to leave in the month sort of month of July and sure enough labor neighbor lady said no didn't want me all right couldn't do it and he that I got to leave so he contracted with the hotel manager and a local restaurant and left and so I spent the most of that summer by myself traveling >> and how old are you >> 11 19 1947 I was 11 years old and I always tell the story about taking the subway was 5 cents to get to the pole grounds to watch the New York Giants play. I also went to museums and so forth. Come September she was supposed to take me and she wouldn't take me again. So he from the from the from the ocean he was able to get me into an orphanage in far away which was really a real break. I mean it was really unbelievable break. Uh so I arrived at this orphanage and and uh integrated into there were hundred kids there half girls half boys and luckily they they were attending a fine you know public grammar school which I flourished at.

I mean I really this flourished first was you know was a terrible thing but it was the first time in my life that I actually had consistency and community at the same time but it was a rights of passage. It wasn't such a easy place to work my way in and I was a little guy. I I until I was when I was actually when I was 14 after entering high school when when I was in grammar school I was like like 4 foot five and and you know 65 70 pounds that's in the book and so I was a little guy it was hard but I did very well PS 104 and then things were going along great and I entered the high school there but I aged out of this orphanage they didn't keep people at 14 my father completely disappeared which was the fourth abandonment by the way I love my father and I you know I I he did what he could do. He he had a tough life as well. But he had that abandoned me completely and luckily the welfare system I became a ward of the state and they could have sent me any place to a reform school or whatever else. Boys in those days were sent awful places. But I got sent to a another orphanage in Yoners, New York, which was four blocks from an outstanding public high school.

And there I had an epiphany in my sophomore year. I decided I was going to go to a private college. Everybody laughed at that because you know kids from orphanages most of them didn't go to private colleges they either worked or went to the local public institution and I applied to the three scholarships that you know was offered at the time and good lord blessed me I got the NOTC scholarship and I could pick any one of 52 universities. I wanted to go to Cornell but they wanted five years. I got accepted there. They wanted five years and a place called the University of Rochester which I never heard of because I went to either Cornell or RBI. Uh, and as my third joint, got allowed to apply to three colleges. So, that was my last one left. They said they would get me through in four years. So, I put my leather jacket on and I got on the bus and I went up there as a freshman and the first year, first week was rush week for fraternities and I got turned down by every fraternity because I didn't have the clothes or the conversation or the haircut or anything like that.

But uh you know it was a great experience for me and as I said you know one of the things about my life is that these disadvantages I had became advantages because as I said when I got to the university wasn't such a good deal but the food was better and the room was better than the orphanage. So I figured I'd hang around for a while and things turned out very well at the university. Sophomore year I got pledged by all the fraternities. My senior year I graduated as a chemical engineer actually and commissioned as a NC in the United States Navy and I was picked as one of the out of 400 I was picked of one of the 12 uh seniors who in the senior honorary society. So I worked out very well and you know Rochester other I arrived in a leather jacket in 1954 and you know 50 years later I gave them the largest gift in their history and they were kind enough not only to name the engineering school after me which is wonderful because now a bunch of kids have to learn how to pronounce my name correctly which is they also gave me a statue. I don't know how many statues you have Mark but I'm the first one in my neighborhood to have 8 foot bronze statue. Sure.

>> Well, not only not only don't I have a statue, but I have been to your statue on more than one occasion. >> So, I have stood in front of the Ed Hum School. I have stood next to the Ed Hum statue. Uh, and I have a child who has a degree from the Ed Hum School of Engineering. >> Oh, that that's exciting. >> So, I think I get a lot of Ed Hum points. So, now now that people have an idea what you went through, which is quite unbel Ed told the story like he was going to the candy store, right? But it's quite when you think about all the places he lived, how many times he had to move, uh to be told that his mother had was no longer alive, to be abandoned by his father four times. This is not something that most of us go through. And and look at and you know you this is a audio only podcast, but if you saw Ed's face, you would say this doesn't look like a guy who's had that such a tough life. This looks like a guy who's very grateful and very happy and is spending his entire adult life trying to help as many people as he can, which is something you and I have in common. So let's get to the book number two. The island of the four Ps and the protagonist Mar is it Marquitus?

How do you pronounce it? >> Marcus. >> Marcus. Okay. So Marcus, who's the protagonist? Uh goes from one place to another. And it's it's a fable. I think it's fair to say it's a fable. >> I believe fable fables have communicated ideas to me personally as as well. And also fable traps you into know your own thinking. It traps you into thinking about yourself when you take a fable. So talk about Marcus and the fable of the island of the four Ps and why you wrote it and what the why why this is so important and why you created a curriculum out of it. Well >> see I I believe that there are only two constants and one is is is your inner voice that starts very early and ends when they they take you away and and change and I believe you need a vocabulary to handle that change to make decisions. In other words, what you really want is to be able to pivot in life when necessary. And the only way you do that effectively in my mind is have a conversation with yourself. In fact, this should be written down as to where you're going and why you're going there. So when you come into that turn in the road, it's not the end of the road, just the turn in the road.

You're moving in the next direction. And I felt a fable which would would basically every person who in life can can associate with marketers and with Thalia later on because that's what you go through. You go through finding your passions and passions overused word. I understand that it's talents, it's interest, it's likes and dislikes. That's context. You know, your passions in Kiev today are different than your passions in New York City. So, but you but everybody goes through that. So, I'm trying to simplify it. It's kind of like the Chinese med medicine cabinet. I want you to put your passions in there and pull it out every once in a while and say, "How are they changing?" You know, I was a kid about this, but in high school was math, science, baseball, basketball, and girls. You know, that was my p my passions.

that when in college that morphed after my freshman year I I found that athletics were interesting but I wasn't going to be a professional athlete that morphed into extra activities and one of my extra activities I created a humor magazine my junior year which was crazy but it taught me my real passion was putting people together to solve a problem to create a product and once I did that I had even further passion a deeper passion I really enjoyed helping people do better than they thought they could and And I didn't realize that till 10 years later when some young man who working for me when I was the CEO said Mr.

engagement is really great working for you because you really want me to do better and so I sort of learned my that's one then these are different kinds of passions because my passion today is giving back and gratitude but these things change and so now that so principles now principles could be first we argued that I I wrote the book two ways and one principles in my mind early on you know what rules are you going to follow what lines won't you cross because life gets pretty fuzzy when you get out there in the real world you know on Wall Street almost every day you can make a mistake. Somebody will call you with information you shouldn't have and you got make sure you got lines you won't cross and principles evolve also over time.

Now there are principle there fundamental principles like you know do unto others and the ten commandments and so forth but there are principles that go through life that change some have to be added some have to be and you could I have things on my wall right now principles I've kept which says one of my principles in managing people was you can you can basically accomplish anything as long as you don't worry about who gets the credit and that really helped me a lot then I I took that to the next step I started to purposely get a habit of deflecting credit. Ed, you've done a great job. No, no, it wasn't me. I I was there, but Mary, Sue, and Jose, you get a trifecta of feeling when that happens. And if you start doing that, people recognize that you're not in there for yourself. Let me interrupt you one second because I think that is such a critical point and something that I've got that I got wrong for many years. Personally, many years I got that wrong until one day the light went on. And first of all, I think what people will find when they do that is it's like an anvil's lifted off their shoulders.

When you no longer have to worry about or think of taking credit and you actually focus on making other people share, you feel much better, which is one of the themes of our of my of this podcast, which is, you know, if you really want to feel good in your life, go help somebody else. When times are tough, go help somebody else. So, I think that idea, that principle, that particular principle, just that one, is so valuable. And I didn't learn it till way too late. And I think, as you said, it the earlier you learn it, the better you are. Sorry. >> I I I didn't learn that right away either. it more. I mean early on I wanted the credit. I of course I wanted to be paid because I was poor. I was I was always struggling for financial security but somewhere midcareer early 40s I came to realize that I can even be a better manager if I take not only I always felt that don't take the credit but I to be able to deflect the credit and then then there's a message you give to yourself. Nothing is ever accomplished alone. Nobody does anything with no help. It just doesn't doesn't happen. best. Now, maybe back 20, 50 years ago, people did that. Maybe a painter did.

But today, everybody needs help. There's there's no, you know, that takes me my third P, which is partners. You're only as good as the people you surround yourself with. That's just a fact. And of course, P1 is the most important experience. If you can find a barber, you can find somebody who's interest who wants to support you. >> Barbara is your wife. >> My Barbara's my wife. 60 years. and you know she suffered just terribly but 60 years of canubial felicity but somebody who share your life someone who support you who you can support you know that's the key to it but also almost everything you do you need partners today I always say there's three kinds of partners partners who can do things you can't do partners who can do things better than you can do them the third partner is interesting partners who do things that you do really well that you don't want to do if you can surround yourself with that that either one or two or three or single person has all those characteristics, you'll end up doing things you do really well that you want to do, which is nirvana. And that's what life is all about.

And of course, partners go down all the way down the line to, you know, I always tell young people when I go to graduations, look to your left, look to your right, pick out somebody who's a friend for life. If you can pull that off, somebody who's going to be interested in you. And then of course, I always say say in partners, get groups of people. you know, I belong to YPO and I have belong investment groups and so forth who for 40 years have been listening to my stuff and they can really tell me when I'm right and when I'm wrong or where I'm going in the wrong direction. So that but you see each of these words passions partners and principles are something that everybody go through. They go through it informally and it kind of goes off in this direction that direction I want to put it in a box and when I go back to life I want to pull it out when I'm on the beach down in the Caribbean and say has this changed you know do I need to do something about this? And then finally, plans collects all those things and makes you write down the kinds of conclusions you're at.

And of course, what's interesting in in the plans chapter, you go to some place where there's a matrix where you put all this stuff in. You find out that some of the things that you do conflict with other things. You got to make certain decisions. Anyway, so that's it. And then I I put those into the four realms of life, which I kind of work on very hard. Recognize self you spend a lot of time on when you're young because you think about yourself. Then work and family become this and I don't believe in balance. I think you're always out of balance. I mean harmony is the word I want to use between those four parts. Work life balance is because you're always focused on something. Soon as you focus on your work, you're neglecting to some extent yourself and your family and community. And sometimes during your life when I went to work for Leman Brothers, but that was a tough job. I focused on that. And my family suffered a little bit. My marriage suffered a little bit. And you know, I didn't do as much in the community area. Now today, I'm focused on community. I'm not focused on work. It's, you know, it's not important anymore. But that's what you have to think about.

And then, you know, think about that that harmony. Is it are you harmonious at this point in time? Are you doing something you have to do? And that that's that's something I want to communicate. And you use the four Ps in each one of those. You can use the four Ps in finding your passions. >> You know, uh I agree with you about work life balance. that term. Uh, I get the idea. I get the idea. Well, I don't want to spend I don't want to neglect my family. I want I don't want to have too little fun or too little variety in my life. And but the problem is that if you if you focus on that, I think you're right. You're never going to be really great at anything. Right. That's right. So, you got to be great at something for a period of life, then you can switch and be great at something else. Yes. This is another This is what I was saying before. We are teaching kids the wrong thing. Work life balance. Bad idea. Quiet quitting. You've heard of quiet quitting, right? Where these uh young people say, "Well, I'll do it the least I can because I want to have that work life balance." You're not. And the reason I tell people not to do that, I'm sure you're going to agree with this.

It's not because you're cheating your employer or uh there's no some there's no super rule in life that says you must do this or that. It's because you will be you will have less fulfillment in your life if you do that. If you if you say I want to be mediocre at everything and just kind of balance it out, you're gonna be you won't be as happy and as me and I wouldn't even use happy as fulfilled. You won't have lived as meaningful life as you could. So, I'm with you on that one. That's again one of those things that we're teaching that are people young people are being taught incorrectly and which is why I like what you're doing in the curriculum with using the four Ps uh is to get people straightened out and say no you know just because you've saw it on Tik Tok or Instagram it's not right let me tell you it won't work for you in the long run you will not be fulfilled and sup and happy as you can in your life if you follow these crazy ideas and what you're doing is you're you're you're taking some very fundamental ideas that have been around for thousands of thousands of years and putting them together in a package that you can deliver to these people. I think it's fantastic.

I I I would like to see this or some variation of this. We could talk about that at some point. Move down the food chain into middle school and high school because maybe not exactly the same ideas. We can you can obviously soften them up, make them a little bit easier for younger uh people to absorb. But I do think your idea of teaching young people these very fundamental prouh things about life the earlier we get them the better. So I applaud you for that. I think Brunick School which is a very sophisticated you know private school is now using it for their seniors right now and they're very excited about it and and they basically I mean I I always hope they would you know use some use their own they're using the book page 26 let's talk about it you know I mean it's very interesting. So, but you have to have a simple language, but if you get too complicated, then you can't go back to it.

Now this is what simple language and I think you're right early on again when you when religion had control of things and more information that took care when the families were there you had this this this op people started out with certain kinds of values and it's really changed quite a bit and screen time you know what's happened today with AI adds to it but AI now social media what I call the geopolitical reconfiguration you know these three things are huge changes which these young people have to deal And you know that's why I'm saying that getting that fundamental those fundamental principles down so you can find your direction that I think is very very important as early on as possible. Plus the fact you do have more opportunities than you've ever had before. And you got >> I agree with that. >> Yeah. >> You know I'll tell you something interesting. I just read a book called The Pursuit of Happiness. Uh and you know probably most kids in high school don't even read the Declaration of Independence anymore. That's another thing we've fallen apart on or what we call civics terrible or social studies. People don't do that. It's terrible. It's absolutely terrible.

But had they read they they often will quote the Declaration of Independence that says I have the right we have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And they interpret the pursuit of happiness as I have the right to be happy and do what I want to do and have fun and blah blah blah. But that's not what the pursuit of happiness meant in the 18th century. Oh, >> exactly. And well before that what the pursuit of happiness is based on goes back to the stoics goes back to the ancient Greeks and Roman and the pursuit of happiness meant to live a virtuous life. That's what the pursuit of happiness was to lead a virtuous life. Well, I'm pretty sure that there's hardly a high school or uh maybe even a college but certainly a high school in this country that explains that your purpose in life is not to be happy. It's to lead a virtuous life. And this is what we have to get back to.

what you're doing in in in the four Ps is I believe helping people not only have a direction but to lead a virtuous life because if you follow those P's you'll get there if you have this this fourth realm of life community I make it very clear I bet if you don't give back and by the way give back gives the greatest satisfaction that's what you put on the planet for >> you know exactly >> that's what you put on the planet for is to give back you know in any way you can I mean I have funds so I've done that but on the other just give back your Time is very important. You know, if you work in the library when you're 80 80 years old and and help people out, find the right book and so forth, that's fine. >> If you help people in the library when you're 20 years old, that's the point. If you want to get >> Some of the schools are starting to move in that direction. My my grandson has required 80 80 hours of community service every year. Interesting. >> You know, for instance, one of the things we talk about on this podcast is that we have a mission. That mission is to evolve from selfish to selfless, from inward focused to outward focused.

And the reason, and I go through, every people are sick of me hearing it. I'm glad they're they're hearing it from you this time because at least they think, well, Mark's not the only guy who's trying to ram this down our throats. But you're right. If you want to be if you wanted to have a very fulfilling, meaningful life, what you just said, giving back, helping others, focusing on other, that's the key. And what you're doing, I think, in your book and certainly even your first book was to refocus people on this is what it's about. Gratitude, giving back to other people. That's how it's not only the right thing to do. It's what's going to generate the most satisfaction and meaning in life. >> I'm I'm I'm selfish in getting doing the things I'm doing because it makes me feel good. I mean, you know, when you when you give a scholarship and I'm told scholarships have to change my life. And the young lady who's my poster child, she, you know, she's 5 foot high. She's a she was a optical engineering major. When she got her PhD, she said up bunch of fun people said, "Wasn't Mr. Hima, I wouldn't be here." Well, you know, come on.

And that that's that pays for everything I've ever done for anybody, you know. Although I'm getting getting back people reading my book saying, "My one woman once said, "My daughter wasn't interested in college. She read your book. Now she's a freshman at Notre Dame." Well, that's pretty good, aren't that? I like that. >> You know, as a as a physician for all those years, you you've hit the nail on the head. You know, every day I got a chance to help people and to me that was the greatest joy. The greatest joy. It still is the greatest joy. And I had the opportunity to figure that out relatively early on that that's where the joy in life comes from is helping other people. When I hear doctors say, "Oh god, somebody called me over the weekend. They bothered me with something." I go, "No, no, you got it wrong. That's that's an honor. That's an honor that they trust you with the most important thing in their life. You should be thrilled and you should be thrilled to help them." And what Okay, so you got to walk off the golf course for 10 minutes. I get it.

But the benefit you're going to get from helping that person is way more than the shot you're likely to shank into the water anyway. So, I I I I you know, hearing you talk about this to me uh is a gift to me today because we talk about these stuff on this podcast all the time, but it's it's very important that people hear that, you know, not to say that I have the I would never tried to tell people we had the market cornered on on on these issues, but it's always good to hear from somebody who's lived an incredible life like you have and has reached these conclusions during your life and recognize that like you said, you get the most out of it when when that young girl who got a PhD told people that she wouldn't be there if it weren't for you. That joy you get then you know you're on the right track. You know you've made you've done some really good things in your life. Ed and you have uh you know it's a pleasure to unfortunately we have to wrap up now but it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you again. You will be hearing from me probably 5 minutes after we hang up today.

I can't thank you enough for doing this for all the good work you are continuing to try and do to make this world our country certainly a better place. This is no small thing. I'm not just saying this because I want you to feel good because you're my guest on a podcast. I'm telling you from the bottom of my heart that what you're doing that your effort to try and help people live a more fulfilling, meaningful life is so valuable and you should I personally applaud you for for willing to take the time in your life to do that. >> Your conversation encourages me to keep going. >> Keep going, my friend. All right. Thank you so much. Uh I I really appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> And we will be in touch. Thank you everybody for listening and we'll see you next time.