Episode 64: Interview with historian John Prevas

I'm fine, how are you?

Well, I'll start with a brief introduction and maybe let our guest amplify a bit if he so chooses. So today we have the actual privilege to have a true friend of mine, a super great and interesting guy, John Previss. John was born in Baltimore, Maryland, educated in Maryland, University of Maryland, and went on to continue to... educate himself eventually with a law degree and became an expert in Latin and other ancient civilizations, then went on to write a bunch of books, famously about Hannibal, who I learned a lot about from John because I knew very little about him except it had something to with elephants. But John has educated me since then. And I'm not sure how many books John has written, four or five, I think. Is that right? But the last one, think, was in 2017 also about Hannel but he also has written some other books about other topics which we'll let him discuss. John has been an educator, a college professor, has had many different interests through his life but primarily when I think of John Prevost I think of somebody super well steeped in ancient history, Sparta, Athens, Rome, Carthage and so on and also the deliverer of some of the best quotes I've ever heard, because he knows, I think he knew some of these people personally, actually, the way he talks about them. So anyway, John, welcome to our podcast. It's really an honor and privilege to have you and I will let Enid start quizzing you. Enid Borden (01:49.028) you Enid Borden (01:58.56) It is an honor. And I'm going to surprise Mark on this because one of the books that you wrote, I actually read, Alexander the Great. Although according to you, it was Alexander the Not-so-Great, which was a fascinating thing for me to see. You talked about Lord Acton saying that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And reading about Alexander the Great was fascinating to me when I look at it, not only historically, but also in today's political world. There's so many kind of connections to me. I just I'm fascinated by it. I'm fascinated by the book. And but I talked to Mark about this. And I guess the first question I want to ask you is, why should kids care about history? Why should kids care about Alexander the Great or Hannibal? Tell us why. John Prevas (02:49.866) In it, before I begin, can I first thank you both for having me? And would you just repeat your introduction about the aerial view? Enid Borden (03:03.897) Okay, I will let Mark talk a little bit about the aerial view, it really, yeah. A podcast for those who wish to crush their anxiety and find meaning and purpose in their lives. John Prevas (03:08.586) I think, no, it's a very simple introduction. You said, welcome to the aerial view.

You John Prevas (03:24.054) I'm afraid, you've invited the wrong person if you're looking for someone to crush his anxiety and find meaning and purpose to life. You've got the wrong person on this podcast. Believe me. Enid Borden (03:29.988) you Enid Borden (03:37.868) Not at all because you have found it. No, no, no. Yes, I'm not good at crushing my anxiety either. Mark can tell you that. I'm the most anxious person you'll ever meet. But you have found meaning and purpose for your life. These books that you've written are amazing and they are meaningful and you have purpose. So no, you're the absolute right person to have on this podcast. How am I doing, Mark? John Prevas (04:02.188) Well, to address your, go ahead Mark, I'm sorry.

You're doing fine, but this is... I was going to say this is what you get from John because we have this conversation all the time. We'd be like point and counterpoint, optimist and pessimist. But we absolutely have the right person because it's important to hear John's point of view and he has so much experience and knowledge. So I don't want to hear me talk. I want to hear him talk. Enid Borden (04:25.828) Yeah. John Prevas (04:27.256) Well, let me respond to your question. First of all, you quoted Lord Acton, okay? Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. But most people don't look at the second part of his quote in which he said, invariably the greatest men in history are the most evil. And I think when it comes to Alexander, the great, Enid Borden (04:34.402) Yes. John Prevas (04:56.78) I don't think there's, I think, first of all, I think there are frightening parallels to leadership today. No matter what part of the world you're in, the parallels are there. And what are they? Alexander was a man corrupted by power, corrupted by his success to the point where he thought not only was he a great king, not only was he a great general, Enid Borden (05:06.681) Yes. John Prevas (05:23.758) but he was actually a living God among men. And as a living God, it was only natural that he should be worshiped by all those around him. And I think that there are some frightening parallels to today in that. I think certain leaders really become obsessed with themselves. They come to the point where they really think that they have. Enid Borden (05:28.174) Yes. John Prevas (05:50.818) that they are the repository of all knowledge. They know where history is going. They know the solutions. And that is the problem. And the ancient Greeks warned us about that. It's called hubris. You become so self-assured, you become so absolutely convinced that you were right. And by that, if you are right, everybody else who disagrees with you must be wrong. And that therein lies. the tragedy because invariably the Greeks say that will become your downfall.

Well, I have so many things to add, but I do want you to answer in its question first, which is why should students or anybody, certainly younger people, because they're in their formative years and you want to get them early. But why is the study in your view? is a study of history to which you've dedicated a lot of your life. So important. And why should we insist that young people and people really of all ages pay attention to history, read, learn, et cetera? John Prevas (06:55.543) Well, to be honest with you, Mark, if they want to stay happy in their lives, don't bother reading history. Because all history is going to show you, okay, is the senselessness and cruelty of human nature, an endless cycle of repeating all of its mistakes over and over and over. So I would say to young people today, no, just you want to be happy, don't even bother reading history. All it's going to do is torture you, which it's done to me.

Hahaha

You Ha ha ha. John Prevas (07:25.387) I mean, I'm obsessed with the past. I'm imprisoned by the past. Why? Because I look at the present and I see the same mistakes over and over and over. And so my view is, and of course, you know, some people could argue, well, you know, I'm at the end of my life. Okay. And so therefore there's a natural amount of pessimism there. If I were young, if I were in my twenties and my whole life were ahead of me, maybe I would view it differently. But I've spent the last 50 years reading history.

Did you? Did you? John, when you were in your 20s and 30s, did you view it differently? Thank John Prevas (08:02.912) No, I really started getting, when I got into my graduate studies, I studied actually my first degree political science. My emphasis, my major was really World Wars I and II. And I remember reading the accounts of those wars and it was heartbreaking, absolutely heartbreaking. And then later on in my career, I became interested in the ancient world. And as I studied the ancient world and I started reading the philosophers, and the historians for the ancient world. Here we're talking about the same thing that happened in World Wars I and II. They're talking about the same things over and over. I'll never forget a quote by Thucydides. Thucydides, the ancient philosopher said, the strong will do what they will and the weak must suffer what they must. That to me just sums it up. I I look at the war in Ukraine. The war in Ukraine is heartbreaking. Even though most Americans don't understand the historical context of that war, just in terms of the suffering of the people, whether Russian or Ukrainians, that's what's so heartbreaking. And of course, yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead. Enid Borden (09:20.01) You know, one of the things that Mark has taught me, Mark has taught me that we need to look at things as a disinterested observer. And this is what the view is. And maybe Mark, you ought to talk a little bit about what the aerial view is and why in fact we want to talk about this in the context of history repeating itself. Mark, why don't you talk a little bit about that.

So John and I are very close friends and we talk about this a lot. I love John for many reasons. And, my wife who you know, every time John comes to this Smithsonian and gives a lecture, Enid Borden (09:46.372) Mm-hmm. Enid Borden (09:51.608) Yes.

You know, she wants to be in the front row because she could listen to him for hours on end because he's a fascinating. You could already tell he's very interesting, fascinating speaker. But we have this problem, John and I, and that is that he looks he just told you how he looks at the world. Don't read history. You're just going to get depressed and sad. And he's right. But the where we. You know, for a depressed and sad guy, you're a lot of fun. But anyway. Enid Borden (09:58.849) Absolutely. John Prevas (10:14.091) I am depressed and sad. Enid Borden (10:19.957) you

So we have this conversation frequently because as you heard me say, and I think I've written chapters about this, that we are going to repeat that to study history. know, I forget who it was, John, one of these you can tell me starts with an S. I'm good at figuring out only remember what letters what initials somebody's name starts with. Who is the guy that's who originally said to ignore history is to repeat it? John Prevas (10:48.297) Santayana. Santayana said that the Spanish philosopher said, you know, those who ignore the lessons of history are condemned to repeat its mistakes. Yeah.

See, sent the an. I knew it started with an S, right? Enid Borden (10:56.944) Thank you.

So what John is telling you is that one of the things that depresses me is that he sees it happen again and again and again from the ancient world forward the last 5,000 years. You've heard me say this, that there's only, there are only a limited number of stories in human life, right? They just keep repeating themselves. And we can study history ad nauseum. For instance, my wife loves reading history. She doesn't get depressed like John. She likes it. A lot of people do, but. Enid Borden (11:05.555) Right.

But to assume that if we study history, we're not going to repeat the same mistakes. I completely agree with with John that that's never going to be why it's not that we don't learn from history. It's that our own human needs and desires will always Trump history. Pardon the pun, but it will always Trump history because our needs and wants do not take into account because they're emotional. Do I think about these historical data that is available to us, to everybody and has been for a long time, which tells you To me, this is a very aerial view point of point, is that when you see this happening again and again, and we talk about the jukebox of time, and John, I think is familiar with my jukebox of time where all time exists contemporaneously, not my idea, Einstein's idea, and proven to be true, that you see these records in the jukebox and they play again. They're always playing forever, but the same ones repeat, right? Wars, cruelty, inhumanity, again and again and again and again. Pick any time period. in recorded human history, you're going to find the same story even before recorded history, same story. That tells you something. That's a super clue, right? It tells you there's something else going on in human life. We don't really learn. We don't. It's not that we don't learn. We don't absorb. don't. embrace what happened before, because we need to experience life. Life is experiential. And so these same stories of human existence are going to occur again and again, which tells us that if there is a purpose to life, and John, I think he's going to tell us he doesn't think there is, but if there is, because you and I think there is, it's got to be something else. It's got to be the evolution that we make as individuals. So enough about me repeating what I've said 100 times. But so, John, this is where you and I have this ongoing discussion why I'm not the pessimist you are that it doesn't bother me that we repeat history. It's always going to be that way. Enid Borden (13:16.14) Yeah, John and I are the same. John and I are both pessimists about all this. But John, let me ask you, mean, because we are somewhat pessimistic, you're not as pessimistic, I think, as you think you are. You've been teaching, you've been a learned professor for so many years, and you've been teaching young people about history. And it does repeat itself. There's no question about it. But is there any room for optimism in any of this?

you John Prevas (13:42.774) I'm sorry, me that again. You broke up on me a little bit there. Enid Borden (13:46.018) I want to know if there's any room for optimism as opposed to the pessimism that you see. In other words, you've been teaching this for so many years. You've been teaching kids, young people about the ancients, and yet you're still pessimistic about it. Is there any room for optimism here? John Prevas (14:05.746) in it, I enjoy each day, each day to its fullest. Okay, I really believe in that. I enjoy it. I I enjoy where I live. I enjoy my relationships. But overall, when I look at the direction that humanity is heading, it's just pessimism. And I don't think that there's really anything you can do about it. I mean, you you and Mark talk about the aerial view and Mark, you know, he quotes Einstein. Well, you know, Einstein said, you know, there are two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe. So in that regards, we're condemned. And then another influence on my life early on in my graduate studies was Sigmund Freud. mean, Freud wrote a, I think a small book that has always influenced me. Enid Borden (14:41.784) You

Yeah. John Prevas (15:01.278) and that's called civilization and its discontents. And Freud is essentially saying human nature, man is flawed. Man is flawed because he has animal instincts and it's always a fight to control the inherent cruelty that lies in man. Part of his instinctual endowment, if you will. You know, a world where it's ain't a dog eat dog or the weak, the strong eat the weak. And Freud said that's just part of human nature, man's instinctual endowment that has to be dealt with. And normally, Amy, Freud, there was a quote where he said that, you know, normally that aggression, that aggression in man lies hidden, waiting for some provocation, and then it manifests itself spontaneously. and it reveals men to be the animals that they are. Homo homini lupus, Freud said, in the heart of every man, in every man there is the heart of a wolf. And so I look at that and I think to myself, you know, I don't know. I I think that, you know, AI worries me, nuclear weapons worry me, chemical weapons worry me. And I remember what I read about the second world war. and the tragedy of the Second World War. And I just think we're living on borrowed time, unfortunately.

Okay, well, I agree with you, but that to me misses the bigger story. This is where. I love talking to John because I don't disagree with what he's saying, although I'm not sure every human, I don't think the heart of the wolf lies in everybody, but here's something interesting. John, are, you know, we're all in the same generation, plus or minus a few years here. I would say as we age, if we're lucky enough to live a long enough time, something happens. There is a... maybe not quite an epiphany, but a realization about how we should treat each other, what life is about, what's important, what's not. There aren't a lot of 80-year-old serial killers or suicide bombers, right? Because at a certain point, for most of us, not all of us, certainly, but for a lot of us, the light goes on. So what does that tell you? Why is it that when you're 80 or 85, you see things differently, you're not likely to create as much havoc as you were when you were 25? Not because you can't, right? Because fortunately, all of us are still, knock on wood, still in good health. We can create a lot of havoc if we wanted to, but we choose not to. Because what happens? Because... Again, another aerial view concept that that we're here. We watch this evolution. We are clearly evolving. We like to say, you've heard me say this, John, that we're evolving from self selfish to selfless, from inward focus to outward focus. That's the point. You know, I think I told you that you need to know this. I think, John, I've told you this to one of my books. I made a mistake of misnaming it. I originally want to name the book. It was my second book. I really want to name it.

If Abraham Lincoln hadn't been assassinated, he'd still be dead now. Right? And I decided not to, but in retrospect, I should have because that encapsulated the whole idea that nobody lives forever. It doesn't matter what you do or who you are, it ends. But along the way you make this evolution, you are not the same at 80 as you were at 25. I don't mean just physically. I mean in the way you view the world. This is a reason for optimism. John Prevas (18:41.257) Well, wait a minute, Mark. Wait, wait, wait a minute. I can explain why you're not the same at 80 as you were at 20. It's called testosterone, Okay? It's not some philosophical epiphany. It's... Enid Borden (18:50.381) You

No, actually, had mine, I just had mine checked. It's no, no, I just had my check, John. It's still off the charts. In fact, when I went to see a doctor, he looked at my testosterone and said, Oh, I was expecting a 25 year old and you walk in. Enid Borden (19:01.98) God. my God. And I put up with it, John. John Prevas (19:04.392) my god.

But you see my point. It's not testosterone. That's the point. No, it's not what it is. It's not. OK, let's say it is testosterone. That's fine. I'll give you that. It's not. But let's say you're right. So why does your testosterone level drop? John Prevas (19:10.837) What do mean it's not testosterone? It's all testosterone. John Prevas (19:25.577) it just, it drops because, you know, the world's had enough of us. And so what they do is just naturally they just increase the testosterone to calm things down a little bit.

No.

What's naturally, our DNA could be written that our testosterone increased. So it's all part of the story. Enid and I talk about this all the time. You've heard me say this. You have to, I like to dig a layer deeper. Okay, yeah, we get older and our vitamin D levels drop and our testosterone drops and our estrogens drop. It doesn't have to be that way, by the way. DNA is software. It could be written differently and probably in a different universe it probably is. But it's not in this universe. So it's the fact that our DNA is like it is and we are like we are. There's a story there. We ignore the story. We just say, that's just the way it is. No, it's not just the way it is. It could be a million different ways, but it's not. It's this way. And we do make that evolution. So your brain, you know, I've talked to you now for many, many years and you are equally as sharp now and in some ways maybe even sharper than you were when we met. all those many years ago, right? But your body obviously doesn't keep up with that, right? And you know, we can't do the things we did years ago physically, but mentally, you're still writing a book. By the way, John is still writing another book on Sparta. So stay tuned everybody. It's going to be another great one. But the point is, there's an underlying story here. That's the reason to not be pessimistic. Because yes, these things happen. History repeats itself. We get older, blah, blah, blah. But But something's happening in the background. We are making this evolution, most of us, not all of us. I don't understand why, you you've heard me say this, I know John doesn't agree that life is preparation. You know, again, I never try and sell anything to anybody. But to me, the facts, know, using, you know, recipes, they look at this, the facts are pointing in that direction to me. So that's why you should, you don't have to be pessimistic. Life is finite. It was always going to be finite. That's not the story. The story is the evolution we make. John Prevas (21:20.516) Let me ask you something. I'm not sure if... Are you telling me that life, that we're evolving towards something better?

No, individually we're making this evolution. Not that we're involved, no, I don't believe we're involving something better because history wouldn't be repeating itself if that were true, right? No, I don't agree with that. But that's not the story. We're missing, we bury the lead. John Prevas (21:34.375) Okay, all right.

the lead is about the individual evolution, not about societies and cultures. They're going to keep doing the same thing. I was talking to, I had an Italian lesson with my Italian teacher this morning, and we were talking about a story and it was based on St. Valentine, San Valentino and the story of San Valentino and how that started the whole thing with Valentine's Day. You know, the story of romance, the story of Romeo and Juliet, the story of You know, all these stories repeat and repeat and repeat. They just have different names. John, you'll agree with that, right? These are all, So that tells you something. It's not random that that happens. It's because the set changes, but the human story doesn't change. We still make this individual evolution. On the way, we create a lot of chaos and misery and cruelty, all the things you mentioned. We also create a lot of joy and brilliance and fun. John Prevas (22:14.367) Yes, absolutely.

We create a lot of good stuff too, but along the we're going to create this stuff. When you get to, but when you've made that evolution, you look and you go, wait a minute, we don't need to be doing all this. Life is finite. We're all going to die anyway. What are we doing? Beating each other up, threatening each other, being cruel. No, no, this is all wrong, right? you get it late. Most people catch on late, which is why we don't have a lot of 85 year old suicide bombers. But right, but that's the optimism part of it. That's the story you have to keep. That's the story. That's what you keep your eye on. The rest of it, the politics, the up and down. John, you have all people have seen it, you know, we talked about politics, John and I occasionally. I don't like to talk about it on the podcast, but I would just say you two guys are probably closer in ideas. I look at this and go, it's just the same old story again and again. The names change, but the story is exactly the same from ancient times, so things that John writes about and talks about. John, us a parallel of ancient history and what's going on now. Pick a country, US, China, Soviet Union, anywhere you want to pick in the world. Give us an analogy. Enid Borden (23:27.825) Yes, Alexander the Great. John Prevas (23:38.685) You want a parallel now between what and what? Tell me again.

between something in the ancient world and something in our world, politically, government, society, whatever. No, can keep, I'm open, you get a free pass because you're a guest. John Prevas (23:48.811) Now I thought you wanted to avoid politics, Mark. Enid Borden (23:56.762) good, I like this. That's why I love the Alexander the Great. To me, was such a, the parallel was so amazing to today. John Prevas (23:57.099) Yeah John Prevas (24:03.755) Well, the thing about Alexander is that, you know, there's something deeper there with Alexander. Alexander is, you know, the son of Philip of Macedon. He is in a privileged position. His father is mysteriously murdered. Alexander becomes king at 19. But what you have to look at is the years that Alexander was the pupil of Aristotle. And Aristotle taught Alexander, yes, Democracy is a good thing. It's like a banquet. Everyone's invited. Everybody brings a dish. Some of the food is good. Some of it is mediocre. Some of it's inedible. It's poorly organized. People scramble for seats. Some people take more. Some people take less. It's just kind of a mess. But the good thing about it is that there's diversity there. People are together. They're sharing. But Aristotle said to Alexander, there's also a banquet which is organized by one chef. He oversees the preparation of the dishes. He makes sure everyone has a seat at the table and everyone takes an appropriate portion. That's well organized, he said. And so he said to Alexander, once in every age comes a great man. a man who can see things that others cannot, who knows the direction that history and life has to take. And Aristotle said, it is only right and just that all men obey such a man. Alexander, when he begins his campaigns, is successful. And he begins to believe that he is in fact this great man who has come forth in this age. and he begins to dictate policy. And finally, it gets to the point where it's Alexander's way or it's the highway. He won't listen to anyone else. He won't listen to dissenting opinions. He knows that he's right. Why? Because he's not only a great king, a great general, he is in fact a God, a living God among men. And a living God needs to be worshiped. John Prevas (26:30.44) Well, in the end, becomes his demise. Yes, he's conquered the whole eastern half of the ancient world. He is rich beyond anyone's imagination. And the Greeks kill him at Babylon. The Greeks who value democracy have had enough of this man who believes that he is a god and demands to be worshipped. And so they send to Aristotle in Greece for the poison. dispatch the monster he has created. Aristotle sends the poison, the poison's put in Alexander's drinking cup, he downs the wine and he dies. That's the story of Alexander and it just, there it is, success becomes his nemesis because it warps him, it corrupts his mind. That's exactly what Acton picked up on that. That's what Acton says.

So. . Enid Borden (27:27.844) In fact, didn't he in fact, Alexander, reading your book, his trusted advisors, two of them, he no longer trusted and he had them murdered. John Prevas (27:27.912) Power corruption, absolute power corruption, absolutely. John Prevas (27:42.057) Right, Parmenio and Antipater, older men who had been the advisors of his father. And I would argue to you the architects of his success, because we see invariably a number of instances where Alexander rushes into battle, especially at the Battle of the Granicus, which was in northwestern Turkey. He had marched his army all day to get to the Granicus River. And when they got to the Granicus on the opposite shore, Enid Borden (27:43.62) Yeah. Right. Enid Borden (27:52.696) Yes. John Prevas (28:11.816) was the Persian army already in position, well rested, ready for battle. And Alexander said at the end of the day after marching his army, let's go now into the river. And Parmenio said to him that it's wrong. Your army's tired. We need time to sit here and assess the situation. Alexander said, I didn't come here to sit and rest and assess the situation. And he plunges into the river with his bodyguard and Disaster, disaster. He has to retreat. The next day, Parmenio mops out the strategy and they defeat the Persian army. An example of his impetuousness.

Well, he was young. Yeah, so so. Enid Borden (28:57.699) Yeah. John Prevas (28:57.96) Yep. Yeah, he's 20 years old.

John, you wrote a book with Steve Forbes, not too long ago, called Power, Ambition and Glory. That's name of it. that right? Yeah. So, and let's spend a few minutes. Enid is likely to tell us that we're running out of time, but we are going to extend this podcast because this is so interesting. See, I'm not the only one who loves you, John. Enid is already hooked. can tell. No, I could listen to you all day. I'm not kidding. So. John Prevas (29:09.19) It is, yes. Enid Borden (29:16.344) No. Absolutely. No, let's keep going. Yeah. Yeah. John Prevas (29:18.59) Ha! John Prevas (29:22.615) You're sure it's not becoming tedious, is it? Enid Borden (29:25.079) No, no, I love it.

So why don't you talk a little about what the point of that book, and maybe you can give us a couple of examples because it does in terms of what it means in today's world. John Prevas (29:36.934) sure. Steve had picked up a copy of my Alexander Cross, I mean, I'm sorry, my Hannibal Cross is the Alps. And he wrote to me and he said, I really enjoyed this book. And he said to me, next time you're in New York, why don't you call me? Let's get together. So a couple of months later, I went up to Manhattan, called him, we had lunch, we spent the whole afternoon talking about history. And he said to me, what are you working on now? And I said, well, I'm writing a book about great commanders from the ancient world. We'll be looking at Cyrus the Great, the founder of the Persian Empire. I'm going to be looking at Alexander the Great. I'm going to be looking at Julius Caesar, Augustus. And, you know, what were their strong points and what were their weaknesses? So I say to him, look, would you like to write the introduction to that? And he said, I'd love to. So then I'm on the train going back to Washington because at that at that time I was living in DC, I thought, you know, maybe we could do some parallels. So I got back to DC, I called Steve and I said, look, do you want to run this book where we'll parallel leaders from the ancient world with leaders from today? And is there, can we make that parallel? Even though 2,500, almost 3000 years separate some of them have the essentials of leadership. and the weaknesses of human nature in a leadership position, have they really changed over that period of time? So we sat down and we began to write the book. Took us four years. And what we did is I picked my leaders and what I did is I picked Cyrus the Great, the founder of the Persian Empire. I picked Alexander the Great, the destroyer of the Persian Empire. We picked Julius Caesar, Augustus, and we picked a very little known philosopher and leader, Xenophon in Athenian. And those are the five we did. And then Steve went and picked about a dozen CEOs. And so I did a section on the history of each man. Steve paralleled them. And the most, of course, most notorious one became when we paralleled Alexander the Great John Prevas (31:56.379) with the CEO of Tyco. Remember him? What was his name?

I read the book and I don't remember. Okay, yeah. John Prevas (32:03.898) God, I've forgotten his name. It'll come to me. You know, it's one of those memory lapses that we 80 year olds have. And he, he sued us over the book and he, and what we see him. And so the, the, lawsuit was heard in New York and he turned around and he said, you know, he said, you, you said I sold a, what we said basically is that he, he had expanded the Taiko, his empire. by conquering too much, beyond what he could control and became eventually corrupted by his own sense of success. And so he sued us because he said, well, you said I only stole 400 million. Well, that's wrong. I only stole 200 million. And then he said, and you said that I had this birthday party for my wife on Sardinia. Enid Borden (32:52.348) Okay.

You John Prevas (33:01.435) and that I disguised it as a shareholders meeting and that we had, it was so over the top that we had an ice statue of David, which was urinating vodka and it was urinating scotch.

You You John Prevas (33:19.367) Well, the court threw it out. I mean, it didn't go anywhere. Enid Borden (33:26.404) I gotta read that book.

That's great. Yeah, it's a good book. I read it a long time ago. what just to kind of put a bow around that part, this is where, you know, my the things that I like to talk about are not contrary to what John talks about, because I, you know, I have greatest admiration from he knows that, you know, besides great affection for my straight admiration research. an interesting guy. you've heard people have listened to this are going to go, don't stop. This guy's fantastic. And what's interesting to me is that I don't disagree with any of this. think it's completely and absolutely correct. But nobody should be surprised. Nobody should be surprised that the leaders of, four or five thousand years ago, because that's not the story of life, John, the story of life is the evolution we make individually. That's the story. John Prevas (34:09.588) Then how can you be optimistic, Mark? John Prevas (34:16.504) I thought it's what Hobbes said, life is nothing more than howling colossal suffering.

It does appear that way from the surface, but it's not true. And this is what the aerial view reveals is that you don't have to, and this is why I don't get so upset about politics. This is why friends of mine, including Enid, but other people who are very adamant about and very vociferous about what's happening now, especially in this country, they go, why aren't you so upset? And I go, well, it's an old story. It's not a new story. Don't worry about it. It's going to happen again and again. When this guy leaves, there'll be another guy, there'll be another woman, there'll be somebody. You know, it's just going to keep happening. It's the John Prevost view of the world. It's going to keep happening. Do not be surprised, but don't worry. Don't fret. That's not why you're here. Don't sweat it. Your job is this individual evolution. John Prevas (35:03.689) How can you not sweat it when some people have their hands on the nuclear codes?

John, % of... Okay, okay. I can. Okay, so let me give you a quick analogy. So 65 million years ago, there were these dinosaurs ruling the earth. And you can imagine Tyrannosaurus Rex with his little brain and big body, maybe thinking, you I can do whatever I want. I have dominion over this planet. Nobody can touch me. And then, which is true, John Prevas (35:11.613) That could end, the whole thing could end in a matter of minutes.

for millions of years and all of sudden, boom, a meteor hits and it's over. And 99, I think it's 99.9%, well over 99 % of all species that have ever inhabited this planet are extinct. It's not going to last forever. A human life doesn't last forever. You can do everything, we've talked that, you can do everything right. You can be the most brilliant, can be all the people you mentioned, Alexander the Great, Freud, Einstein, you name it, doesn't matter. As far as I can tell, none of them are still alive. They're all gone. It doesn't matter because that's not the story. The story is not perpetual life or power that lasts forever. It's the evolution we make as individuals. That's what the aerial view reveals. So the stories that you tell and the analogies you use between the past and the present are super interesting and always well written, but they should come as no surprise to anybody. It'll be the same as humanity exists a thousand years from now or 10,000 years from now, which it might or it might not. The same stories will be playing over and over again. We'll just have different names, we'll have a different set, technology will be different, et cetera. But the stories will be exactly the same. That tells you, don't, you know, do the best you can. Don't hurt people. You know, create, know, innovate, be kind, you know, be generous. That's what you have to focus on because you're not going to change the story. You can try as hard as you want and you might have an effect during your lifetime, but as soon as you're gone, the story is going to start all over again. So you can't worry about that. You can't focus on that. It's interesting. It's fascinating, which is why we could listen to you forever. But what I try and convey is that don't fret. Don't worry because that's not your that's not why you're here. That's not your mission. Right. You can't control that and you don't need to control it and you won't control it. But what you can do is is to enact a Viktor Frankl rule, is you can only deal with what is under your control and you have complete control of how you react and respond and feel about situations. Enid Borden (37:31.722) And with that, we're going to end because we passed our time, but it was a great way to end. Yes, we have, got almost, yes. And we could probably go on and on and on. Maybe we should. So could I. This is terrific. I want to thank you, John, for doing this. Mark, I think, John Prevas (37:38.791) Have we gone over our half hour?

we could go on and on. can listen to John forever. John Prevas (37:52.345) It was my pleasure. You're both delightful to interact with and maybe you'll have me back sometime.

I was gonna say, I was gonna say, we're gonna do this again because we have just scratched the surface. Right, right. Enid Borden (38:00.63) What? Enid Borden (38:04.568) There's no question about it. And I want to thank you. I thank you both. Mark, we always end it with you with the last word. think what I'd like to say is thank you. I am not, I am normally a pessimist. Well, not as pessimistic as you and Mark, of course, is totally opposite to us. But I think that we've had a meeting of the minds here and I think we're sort of getting, leveling the playing field a little bit here. Mark, let me leave you with the last word, if you will. Markekleinmd (38:32.3) Well. To me, the last word is, first of all, John, you don't look anywhere near your age. Second of all, you haven't lost one single neuron. And you are one of the most interesting people that I've had the pleasure to meet with in my life. You're eloquent. Your knowledge is unending. You're fascinating. You're super interesting. I would tell people that if you ever get a chance to get into a bookstore and buy a John Prevost book, do it. And if you get a chance to watch him live, like in Smithsonian, they're probably recorded somewhere, you should do that too. He's an excellent speaker. He's a great friend, a great person and I can't thank you enough and we absolutely will get you back and I told Inidjohn she was gonna love this right because I don't know anybody who's who spends time with you and listens to you who doesn't walk away going wow that is fascinating so thanks a million we will absolutely do this again and as always thank you everybody for listening and we'll see you next time Enid Borden (39:18.318) Thank you. Enid Borden (39:22.521) Peace. John Prevas (39:22.835) Thank you both for having me.