Episode 63: AI

Welcome to wisdom from the aerial view the podcast for those who wish to crush their anxiety and find meaning and purpose in their lives Hello, dr. Klein. How you doing today mark?

Hello, Miss Borden. Good to see you as always.

we could be seen. You know, one of the things we've been doing on this podcast is talking about things that are either current or not current, et cetera. But lately, well, that's not true. That's not true. Things can be just like me. I'm not current or not current. I'm just here. Maybe it's current. Anyway, but what I've been looking at lately a lot is this whole notion of AI.

Well, things are either current or not current. That covers most of it.

artificial intelligence. Why am I looking at that? Because I was thinking I've been artificially intelligent for years. In other words, dumb. But the more I read about this AI, the more I am perplexed by it. And you actually sent me something that I think our friend Bruce Levinson sent to you. It was an article that has transformed everybody. Everybody's talking about it now when it was called, Something Big is Happening. And it was written by a guy by the name of Matt Schumer. I never heard of him, but that doesn't mean anything. And he talks about something that is fascinating. He quotes Dario Amadei, I don't know if he pronounced that correctly or not, CEO. Amadei, okay. He's a CEO, big shot in the AI industry. And he has publicly predicted that AI will eliminate 50%, 50 % of entry-level white collar jobs within one to five years.

I think it's Amadei. I think it's Amadei.

Now, he also said it appears that AI will affect all aspects of our lives. For example, legal work. AI can read contracts, summarize case law, draft legal briefs. In finance, AI can build financial models, analyze data, write investment memos. And this one, which struck me, which we need to talk about, in medicine. AI can read scans. It can analyze lab reports. It can suggest diagnoses. So the article called Something Big is Happening is happening. What are your thoughts about all of this? Let's talk about AI for a second.

So I don't get scared about a lot of things. I'm scared is probably not the right word, but I am concerned about AI for lots of reasons. So I have a conversation going on with some very smart people who on the one hand think I'm over blowing this. These are very people in the tech world, people in the legal world, really, really, really smart people.

Okay, yeah, let's talk about that.

And I'm looking at this going, I'm really concerned. go, you're over concerned. You shouldn't be so concerned. go, I'm really concerned, right? So I don't know who's right. I don't know if I'm right. I'm hoping I'm wrong. And I'm hoping that they're right. So my concern is on multiple levels. One, certainly jobs. All the things you mentioned, anything from

What is your concern as opposed to theirs? Yes.

creating apps to programs to legal documents, financial statements. So accountants, lawyers, programmers, anybody who's not carrying a hammer or a wrench. their jobs can be at least partially replaced by AI. So the question is, will the jobs be replaced or will this just augment their jobs? So one of the things they're talking about, give an example, is young associates in a law firm who doing all the research. They're going to the library. Now, of course, they don't go to the library, they do it all online, but same idea. They're pulling up the cases, justifying the structure of the argument.

Yeah.

Yes.

And that's what associates do. They do all the grunt work, right? And then the senior person, he or she either goes to court or does the negotiation or whatever particular field they're in, right? But if you can get AI to pull all those cases for you and create, you can just say to AI, you can put in a prompt. and say, either Anthropic, which is Dario Amadeus' company, or ChatGPT, one of the others, Gemini, Google Gemini, and say, here's this case we're working on. I need all the legal, I don't know what the right term is, but justification for this. Pull every article in the last 35 or 50 years that mentions this, talks about this, whatever, and in a matter of seconds to minutes, it'll all be there. Then you can say to it, Now I want you to write a brief, summarize all these articles along the lines of making the point that our client is correct because blah, blah, blah. And it will take all those articles. will write a brief. will create all the citations. And it's done. It'll be done. It could do this in 10 minutes. I don't know, maybe less. It would take multiple associates days to do all this stuff, Days. And it's done. So you go, wait a minute, why am I paying all these people when I can just put this in there, right? You can take, I'll you an example. I was buying travel insurance. So I took the travel insurance documents that you get from like, whether it be Allianz or one of these other kinds of companies. and it's long and they're detailed and they're legalese. And I dragged it into chat GPT and I actually pay for the paid version. I recommend people, if you don't mind, if you can afford it, get the paid versions of these things. They're 20 bucks a month and they're a year ahead of the free versions or something like that. And the difference is dramatic, right? Every few months, the difference is dramatic. And I just yanked it and I said, okay, summarize with this telling me what can I do? What can I do? What will they pay for? What won't they pay for? What do I need to look out for? Boom.

And like a minute later, it had an analysis of that. So here's something else I did. think, I don't know if I even told you this yet, but over the weekend, you and I talked about matching volunteers with things. I told it to build me an app to do that. And it built me an app to do that. Yeah, it did it. Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Did it do it? Wow. How long did it take you to do it?

Well, I'm not particularly skilled at this. the question, then it probably, this thing, whole thing went on probably for half an hour, our conversation. It would ask me questions. You want this, you want that. don't forget this. It added stuff I didn't think about. Like we have to have some safety things in here so bad guys don't start recruiting people. Well, I didn't think about any of that. It had all that stuff in there. I talked to the computer.

Have you literally talked to the computer or is it all?

and it was asking me questions. What do want to do? We have a choice here. Do you want the landing page? Do you want the question, it'll look like this? Or you want to look like this? What do you want to do with this group of people? mean, yeah, it was, yeah. So when people say, It's not just, know, tell me the, you know, tell me the top five quarterbacks in the last 20 years, right? You can ask it that and it will do it very quickly, better than Google, but that's not what it's for. You know, ask it to do something, ask it to make something, ask it to build something, ask it to analyze something. It could do all these things. So you think, well, do I really need all these people? So you ask me about medicine. I'm a radiologist, right? So.

Yeah. Yeah.

So radiology images are like, where's Waldo? So there can be something on the bottom left-hand corner of an image that you wouldn't even notice, but it can have a significant impact, just a little clue as to what's going on with the patient. they're like, images, not X-rays, X-rays aren't that bad. But when you get to MRI, CTs, things like this, there's an unbelievable amount of information on every slice. And a scan could have hundreds of thousands of slices in it. So you're looking at a tremendous amount of data. It is very easy to miss something. And every single radiologist on the planet misses things. Not like rarely, like all the time. Now most of them don't matter. But if you can get a computer to say, take a look at this. And it goes, hey, by the way, I found this, this, this, this, and this. And you go, I didn't even notice that. That's great. Now the question is, does it replace you or does it augment you? Enid (08:17.9) Yeah. Well.

So I can only talk about from my point of view, I think it's tremendous tool for doctors. I'll give you another example. You go into your doctor and you go, I'm having this pain that's been bothering me and your doctor asks you a bunch of questions and you get a list of the signs and symptoms. Signs are like actual findings like hyperreflexia, fever, tenderness, these are signs. Or symptoms like pain over here or nausea or whatever. And when you combine the signs and symptoms together, the doctor in their head, he or she thinks, okay, what are the possibilities for this? What can cause this? And you create something called a differential diagnosis. And then your job is to go through that list of possible diagnoses and eliminate them one by one by doing additional tests, asking additional questions and so on. Images, blood tests, so on and so forth. And that's how medicine works. It's problem solving. It's a lot of fun, but it's hard. And you can't remember everything. So once we got the internet, you could look things up. Boy, that made life a lot easier. But now...

Yeah.

you can say, here are the signs and symptoms of a patient, give me the differential diagnosis. And you will go, yeah, I knew that, I knew that. Oh, I didn't even think of that one, right? Bang, right? And all of sudden it says, I'll you an example. So patient comes in and has maybe not having some kind of vague symptoms, whatever, but it's early on and you ask questions and. You know, one of the things you asked is, know, the patient mentioned to you, and by the way, I lost my sense of smell a few years ago, right? Okay, if you put that in, one of the things that's going to come back is Parkinson's disease. You could lose sense of smell in Parkinson's 10 years before you get Parkinson's, right, or more. Okay, well, the doctor may not have thought of that, but the computer will think about it. It'll give you every possible, uh, differential diagnosis, it'll help you. in that sense, do you need the doctor or don't you need the doctor? Well, you need the doctor to explain it in a humane way. You need the doctor to try and organize the game plan, right? So, but it is a tremendous tool and advantage for both the patient and the doctor to have this. So I look at some things, I think it'll be an adjunct, it'll be an asset, like in medicine for a while. Other things, maybe even the law, maybe in the law it's the same thing. Maybe it'll help the, you could still have the associate do all this stuff and makes the associate better. I don't know. That's what we're to have to find out. But there's no doubt about it that the number one cost in any business or pretty much in almost any business is labor costs, right? I think I just lost my headphones, but so labor, can you hear me? Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

can.

Sorry. So labor costs are usually the highest cost in any creation of any product. Well, you can cut your labor costs by 80%.

Yeah.

Okay, but all right, so it sounds very positive and there's no question it sounds, except for the fact that we may be losing jobs. It sounds positive in that, certainly for medicine, but what scares you about it? Why you wrote to me, you said, this scares me. What is it that makes you nervous?

Well, I scared is probably the right word. I shouldn't have used scared. It concerns me because A, people have to have jobs. No jobs. It's not only just how you're to pay your bills, because I could see a scenario where things become so cheap because the cost of goods, cost of building things becomes so much cheaper because there's no much less labor costs. But still, so that's one thing. You've got to be able to feed yourself and your family and so on. But you need to have something to do, right? You can't just sit around, we don't want an idle population. That's not good, right? We all know that. So that worries me. Here's the other thing. In terms of threats, so we read about all this fraud now in healthcare and everywhere. We saw this thing in Minnesota with these daycare centers and.

Next slide.

Well, fraud is this is going to look like a joke when AI takes over. If AI commits fraud, you're never going to know. Here's another thing. You won't be able to tell whether something you get in an email or a text or a phone call, whether it's real or it's AI, you will not be able to tell. Right. It's going to be so much worse.

Right, that's right.

Right, that's happening today. That's happening today.

That's another thing. The military, right? Who's deciding, you know, when you have these swarms of drones and AI controls the drones and I mean, it's just so many ways this could go south, right? Now there's going to be some great things. Diseases, again, many, many diseases that we worry about now are going to be cured or easily or certainly managed, mostly cured, but certainly managed. Climate change, boy, I would tell people to stop worrying about climate change.

Right, right.

Because we're not going to fix the climate. We're going to be able to adapt to it much better. And AI will help so much in that. Different forms of energy. It's desalination for water. I mean, there's a million things that AI is going to help us do dramatically better. So there are so many positives. It's going to be fantastic in that sense. But there's the dark side. And we've lived long enough to know that, what was the promise of the internet? information and communication about, okay, but the internet's got a lot of bad stuff on it, right? It's full of porn and evil and horrible stuff. So AI is the same way, right? It's a double-edged sword, so that's why.

What's the best thing? Well, you know, there was a wonderful front page piece in the Sunday New York Times recently written by Eli Saslow, who I adore. And it's about a woman in her eighties who lives in rural part of the state of Washington, all alone sort of in the woods. Her husband died and she suffered from something that we so many of us in society today are suffering from. That's called loneliness. And she was lonely. And long story short, I'll make it very short. She was given a robot. It's a little contraption that's in her house. It was invented by the Israelis, was AI. And it was her companion. And at first she was quite skeptical of it. It talked to her. It knew when she was feeling down, when she was upset, when she was at her most miserable. And it talked her through it. It said to her, you've been sitting too long, how about we get up and play a game? and et cetera, et cetera, and all of a sudden her life changed. So this is the positive for AI. It took this woman who was very, very lonely in rural Washington and took her out of her loneliness. So there are positives to AI. There's no question about it. I don't know. I don't even understand AI. I don't know how it works. I don't understand TikTok either. So I'm just one of those people who are still skeptical and yet understand the possibilities of using AI to help those people in our society who are the most vulnerable, who are alone, who are lonely, and are looking for companionship. And we know that when you are isolated, it's as bad as smoking 15 cigarettes a day to our health. It's really bad. So if in fact AI could be used to help those people who are lonely, I say, yes, let's do it. The question that I have is, and you brought this up,

There are awful things to AI too. They're changing faces, they're voices, they're putting voices on different people who are not that particular person. So how does one regulate this and how does one look at AI in a positive light as opposed to a negative light and how do we change that, change our views? First, let's talk about how do we regulate AI and should we regulate AI?

Okay, so are we gonna regulate AI? Let's start with that. No, no, here's why. This is the toothpaste out of the tube problem. So AI is so powerful. I think the thing is that things you mentioned, we'll get to the loneliness and the discussion, all that same, but I think what people don't understand.

Yeah. markekleinmd (16:31.4) is how unbelievably powerful this is. So the thing that struck me last week, which is why I got very concerned or more concerned is because Anthropic, Claude, the company is run by Dario Amadei and Claude is their equivalent to ChatGPT. It created its next iteration, the next version of it. So normally what happens, it created it itself. ChatGPT, I think did the same thing. Uh-oh.

Yes.

It created it itself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Right? This thing is now self-replicating, right? It is saying, I'm going to make myself better and boom, it did it without human intervention. So, you know, there's something called exponential growth. So I'll give you a really quick example for people who aren't familiar with this. So if you take bacteria and you put it in a Petri dish, a little dish, right? And you put some stuff in there that it likes to eat. You put a couple of bacteria in there and you go back an hour later and there's a billion of them, right? It didn't just grow from like one to two. went one, two, four, 16, 64, like 256. It's exponential growth, right? It's not, and it's not like a small linear growth, like one by one. It grows faster and faster and faster and faster and faster. And that is what's happening. So it used to take, you know, five years to do in terms of the evolution of AI. Now it takes five weeks to do, right? Something along those lines. It's very fast. So.

Thank you.

And we don't really understand how all of it works. We don't understand how it thinks. So the question is, is it conscious? I had a conversation with one of my kids yesterday about, no, it's not conscious. But I'm not sure what that even means anymore, because if it can create itself, it can replicate it, it can improve itself. What is that? What's the definition of that? Right. So we don't really know how it works and we don't really know where it's going. So that's the danger that this thing is so fast. What used to take years is taking weeks. So when people say AI will reach this level in three years, now it's no, AI will reach it in six months. Right. And it's faster and faster and faster. It's what's called exponential growth. It just goes faster and faster and faster. It's unstoppable now. And now let's talk about regulation.

Yeah.

So the country that controls AI, the group, let's just say the group that controls AI, the best AI is the most powerful group on the planet. So, you know, right now we see the Chinese as our competition. Okay, that's very easy to see, but there's potentially unlimited number of groups out there.

Yes.

So we can't afford the thinking goes, we can't afford to get behind. So if we put limits on our AI and the rest of the world has no limits, we're screwed. So that's why regulation is out the window. It was a good idea that horses out of the barn. That had to happen years ago, at least several years ago. It's very hard to do it now because it's a global world. AI created in China or anywhere else in this planet. know, it does not gonna follow the rules of American AI, right? And I can tell you it's not just a Chinese, right?

Yeah, sure.

I mean, just think of where the smart people are on the planet, and they're on it, right? And they're all over the world, right? We don't have the market corner on smart people. In fact, we're running out of, we're kind of running a little short on smart people, I'm afraid. So this is what's going on. So regulation is just not gonna happen. It's impossible. So you have a great example about loneliness, but we've read about, and there's lawsuits now going on in California about these families who were suing Facebook, Instagram, I guess it is, or, Open AI, think, open AI. I don't want to get this wrong, about having, the AI was, I think it was open AI, the AI was talking to the child about suicide and about giving up on your life and so on. So your little robot is pumping this lady up with hope and this AI chat bot is saying, well, your life's not worth living, you might as well just end it now. That's the flip side, right? Okay, that's the problem.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes. Right. That is the problem.

worry about that. So the whole thing globally. In other words, what I'm saying is, and I'll give you, this is going to sound very drastic. It's going to sound terrible. And it's not meant to, but it popped into my mind. So let's go back 65 million years. And the dinosaurs ruled the earth. Tyrannosaurus rex, nobody was messing with Tyrannosaurus rex. He wanted to eat, he ate what he wanted, where he wanted, when he wanted, right? When he wanted. He was the man, right?

And everyone's right.

I'm sure there were tyrannosaurus rex women who were also doing the same thing, One would assume, right? And they were running the planet and there was nothing in sight that was gonna derail them. And then a meteor hit and they were gone. We don't have dinosaurs anymore. know what the descendants of dinosaurs are?

One would assume, yes.

You don't want to know what I think, but no, what?

Birds, birds are the descendants of dinosaurs, right? Nobody's really afraid of birds that much, but they are the descendants of dinosaurs. Okay, but we don't have Tyrannosaurus rex or Triceratops running around, right? And yet they were ruling the earth for millions of years, Not hundreds, millions, right? And then boom. So, and here's the other thing, they talk about us being maybe in the sixth extinction, meaning, because there have been an extinction of planets, you most 99 point something percent of all species that existed on this planet no longer here. So when people go, a species going extinct, I'm going, well, that's not new, right? You're worried about some little tadpole somewhere, but 99 % of species or more have already are wiped off the face of the earth, nothing lasts forever. And then all of a sudden you begin to realize, hmm, Homo sapiens.

Right. Yeah. Right.

Hmm. You know, are we the dinosaurs 65 million years ago? And all of a sudden, we're about to be usurped by this thing called AI or whatever. So, you know, people say, well, that's come on, that's crazy. Well, the dinosaurs didn't think it was a, you know, if Tyrannosaurus Rex A said Tyrannosaurus Rex B, I'm a little worried that something could happen. They go, what are you talking about? Nobody's, right.

Uh-huh.

Aye, aye, Yeah.

except that everything still exists, right? Everything still exists.

It does still exist. So the point I'm saying is that I'm not one to panic. I never panic. I'm just thinking, it just occurred to me that, hmm, you never know. So that's, maybe we're a little, I wouldn't be too sanguine about this. Now, maybe I wouldn't change how we live our lives. I would continue to do the right things, try and be the best people we can, help as many people we can. We talked about stoicism recently, teach virtue, lead virtuous lives. These are all still very important. It doesn't matter what's gonna happen.

Mm-hmm.

Well, that's right.

Yes.

Can we do that though? Can we do that? We live in the same universe. Can we be virtuous and yet be users of AI at the same time? And how do we do that? Let's talk about that. How?

Sure, 100%. Yes, of course you can. That's the whole, that's the point. I'm assuming that's why you wanted to bring this up to begin with, knowing how your brain works. Yes, yes, of course we can. In fact, it's the virtuous part that should lead the AI part, right? So we should all be able to agree on certain things, right? When AI or any technology is used in a purpose that,

Yes it is. Yes it is.

Yes.

undermines the quality of a society, the worth of people. We should try and move away from that. should together say, no, that's not what we want. You know, I always have said, I've said many times, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something. Right. You know, we have just because you have the right to do a doesn't mean you should do a you have also have responsibility. And other things that we talked about, we didn't get to last time was responsibility that that the pursuit of happiness we talked about includes responsibility. Right. And so when we have these tools, this unbelievably powerful tool like AI, it is our responsibility

Right.

responsibility as virtuous people in search of virtue to use this in the proper way. Now, there are always going to be bad people. There are always going to be people who for whatever reason or another, and we've talked about this, how people get to be, I don't believe that people are born evil. think, you know, they're made evil by unfortunate childhood situations and events and poor parenting, et cetera, and societies that don't care enough about young people. blah, blah, we get into that a long time, but it's not blah, blah, blah. It's all very important. so we all kind of have to, we have to watch out for the bad people using it in an evil way. But yes, the whole idea is to be virtuous first. and then you take something like AI and use it as a tool to improve the livelihoods and the welfare of as many people as we can. Yeah, that should be the goal. And that's why the best part about AI, I had a conversation with somebody five years ago, six years ago now, and we were talking and I said to this person who is very close to me and I said, You know, AI is going to, this is six years ago I said this, AI is going to have such an impact on medical research that studies that would take years to do, we can shorten into months. We'll be able to bring drugs onto the market, create these new products and services much, much more quickly. And this person said to me, oh, come on, that's impossible. You still need to have all these patients and go through all these trials. go, no, AI is going to short circuit a lot of that. You're going to need a fraction of the number of people and a fraction number of time because AI will be able to, what's the right term, iterate along these lines and figure out what the likely it's going to be. We're going to save a ton of time on all this stuff. This is very exciting. New drugs, treatments of diseases, diseases we worry about today, many cancers, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's.

I don't see any reason why we can't figure these things out. We will. These are all related to proteins in our body and proteins are unbelievably complicated, unbelievably complicated. We can't handle that in our human brains, but AI can. It could create every single permutation and combination you can think of over the course in an hour. and come up with all these things that ways to address these medical problems, we're on the verge of this literal revolution in terms of how we care for and treat all these diseases. And again, I feel the same way about climate change. These are not what we should be worrying about. We should be really focused now on making sure we get this AI part right, that we do it under the auspices of a virtuous umbrella, that we wanna do it the right way for the right number of people. We should spend a lot of time creating as many safeguards against the downside of AI which are out there. We need to think about them, need prepare for them. Again, regulation is not going to happen, but we need to be prepared and think about all these things as much as possible. And guess what? AI will help us do that too, right?

Yes.

It will. to end this, we talk a lot about young people and because that is the future. And there was another article written by a professor and he wrote that young people are losing the ability to think for themselves. Research suggests that students using AI do not read as carefully when doing research and that they write with diminished accuracy and originality. Students do not even realize what they're missing, but educators and employers know reading closely, thinking critically, and writing with logic and evidence. That's one of the downsides of AI. That's another thing that needs to be thought through. If we're asking kids, young people, maybe not so young, if they're losing their ability to think for themselves, they don't have to, AI can think for them.

You know, I'll take the other side of this for a minute. Because if you don't have to remember a whole bunch of facts or you don't have to spend hours and hours and hours and hours researching and finding things and they're at the tip of your fingers, then you can use your brain in a different way. So we do need to educate people. We do need to get them to think, but.

or for other things.

not the same way. don't need to see. I never understood the reason. You know, when people recite poetry to me, I go, that's fantastic. I could never do that. I was never, I had a pretty good memory, but I was never interested really in remembering poems or things. I like poems. I've written poems, right? But

Mm-hmm.

Right.

this rote memory stuff, I always seem to me like, why are we doing this? Why rote memory? Nowadays, so give an example of medicine, if I can pull up a differential diagnosis of a group of symptoms, fine, you just saved me a lot of time. Now my mind is open to do different kinds of thinking. as the most important thing we need to teach kids is how to be a good person, what you're here for. how to live a virtuous life. If we teach them that and everything goes under the umbrella of that, then we can teach them how to think differently. They can use their brains for different things, but as long as it's heading in the right direction, I'm okay. So give me an example. Is it really important to remember your multiplication tables? I don't know the answer to this, by the way. I love math. My dad used to sit in the car with me driving and he'd say multiply 27 times 55. This is what we did in the car. I was like six, Eight, whatever. I was very young when we did this, but we did it forever, right? So I think now it goes, is that important? Do I need to do that now? because really I can just take my phone and say, what's 47 times 53? Siri tell me the answer and Siri will, right? So we wanna use the brains for maybe, I'm not saying we shouldn't do that. I don't know the answer. I'm really not, I'm not ready to pronounce whether we do or we don't need multiplication tables memorized. We probably still do, but we can free our brains up to do higher level things as AI progresses. So.

I don't, but yes. I mean...

Yes.

You know, as long as we have our humanity, as long as we and we've we've lost a lot of that. We've talked about that. As long as we have a humanity and we understand why we're here and what our purpose is, then we can use this this unbelievable new tool, this AI, which people have no idea how powerful this is. This is the nuclear weapon compared to compared to a sword. That's the analogy, right?

Yeah.

know, people using swords and now using nuclear weapons. That's the difference. AI is in a sense has that incredible power and it keeps growing. If we can use it properly and we maintain our humanity, then good. If we lose our humanity and we let AI, and we just think use it as a weapon, then we got a lot of problems. Then we have a lot of problems.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way end it. I have to tell you, you and your dad were doing multiplication tables and my father and I would sit in the car and sing show tunes. So AI can't replace that. Anyway, thank you. We should have really, good conversation. Good conversation. We need to keep thinking about it to turn AI into a virtual, commodity as opposed to a, yeah.

I should have learned more show tunes.

Yes. By the way, I will tell you real quickly, I know Anthropic, the company we talked about, Dari Amadei, they have a woman whose job it is to teach ethics and morals to the software, to AI. That's her job. Isn't that great? Yeah, that's great. Yeah.

That's amazing. It's amazing. It's a new world. I'm sorry that we're only here for a short more time. can have this conversation that lasts forever. And maybe it will, because it always does, because time keeps going. I want to thank you for good conversation, interesting conversation. Final word back? Final word back?

Let's see where this goes. No, think I can't wait to see where this goes. I hope it goes to a good place, but we'll see. All right, Ian, thanks a million. Thanks, everybody, for listening. We'll see you next time.

I hope so too, you guys. Thank you. Peace.