Episode 60: Death

Enid Borden (00:01.074)

Welcome to wisdom from the area of view, the podcast that will attempt to help us ease our anxiety, give us less stress in our lives and also help us to find meaning and purpose in our lives. Good morning. Good afternoon, Dr. Klein. How are you, Mark?

Dr. Mark Klein (00:17.995)

we need so good to see you

Enid Borden (00:19.838)

Good to be seen. How's life?

Dr. Mark Klein (00:23.286)

Life is good. Everything's fine. We are recording this after the major snow event in Washington. be about a few... So it'll probably be a few weeks before this actually makes it live and at that time people go, what snow event?

Enid Borden (00:38.09)

Yeah, no, this one might last for a while. You know, I said to you, how's life? And I thought, well, let's talk about death. And the answer is, okay, why? There was a special supplement to the New York Times a while back, and the title was, We Are All Going to Die. It says, yet this inescapable fact often goes unspoken. Talking about death can be hard.

Dr. Mark Klein (00:41.461)

It might.

Enid Borden (01:07.368)

and many find themselves unprepared when it comes calling. And I thought, well, you know, that's right. And in this piece, you don't mind me going on about this, because it really touched me, there was an interesting story about a woman who talked about her grandfather. And her grandfather knew that he was dying. He was 97 and he knew the end was there. And so he decided to throw a death party for himself. which is kind of interesting, kind of interesting thing to do. I never thought about it. Thankfully, I never had to yet. But she talks about what he did at this death party. And then she says, when six o'clock rolled around, my grandfather would ask, who's pouring me a scotch? Cocktails, cheese, olives, and stale water crackers appeared. We listened to classical records and told stories and took turns cooking dinner. And then she says, People often talk about death as if it's the worst thing that can happen to someone, as if it's something that must be avoided at all costs, better to age, however painfully, however diminished than to ever admit that we are mortal. But at the end of a long, full life, my grandfather was done. He died with power and agency, love and support. To have that death, he had to acknowledge and embrace his mortality. At our death party, he gave his family a chance to accept that fact too. And then she says that, I mean, it's fascinating. She said that it comforts me when I think about it and I tell my parents, this is what it is. This is what it's about. It's all about that. So let's talk about death. I know you're one of the few people I know who aren't afraid of death. You have no fear of death. So let's talk about death. Okay, doc, good.

Dr. Mark Klein (02:59.912)

It's one of my favorite topics as you know, totally misunderstood, think feared inappropriately. And the reason I say that is just what that article said. Death is unavoidable. You've heard we've talked about this many times, no matter how powerful you are, how famous you are, how rich you are, your level of your accomplishments. Last I looked, Thomas Edison isn't with us, nor is Albert Einstein, nor is the guy who created fire or the wheel. So, you know, the richest people in the world have come and gone. Presidents, emperors, kings, they're all gone. So it doesn't matter. There's no avoiding it. And this is no news to anybody. But it's not something people think about because you have to go one level deeper. And you know, Enid, we talk about this a lot on this podcast that you have to we accept things, but we and we just said, well, that's just the way it is. But we don't make that effort to go a layer deeper. And death is one of those things where you have to go a level deeper to understand what it's about and to move away from this terrible fear of death to appreciating death for what it really is. So, you know, that's why we say conventional wisdom is almost always wrong. It's probably always wrong, but I'm trying to be generous. But in this case, excuse me, the idea of death and that we are, we live in a culture that fears death is not only unhealthy, it's incorrect, it's inappropriate, and it detracts from what the lesson death can teach us. Death is the greatest clue to purpose.

Enid Borden (04:34.066)

Explain that to me. You say that a lot. Explain what you mean by

Dr. Mark Klein (04:38.776)

So once you accept that death is inevitable, which it is, and that no matter what your accomplishments, your wealth, your power, it's coming for you, Longevity can therefore not be the goal of life because there's no such thing. I saw an article recently by a very well-known scientist who studies aging and has sat on a couple of occasions, at least a couple of occasions, that there's no reason, excuse me, there's no reason we can't live to 150. Okay, great. We live to 150. We think we have a problem with social security now. We're gonna have a real problem then. But forgetting all that stuff. Okay, let's say we to 150. Guess what? There is still a death at 150. So used to be death came at, you know, think 40 % of children or some crazy number died before the age of five or something, centuries ago, some huge number. Maybe that's high, but it's a big number. And then the average life expectancy certainly isn't anything like what it is today. So, you know, lots of people died in infancy. And if you got out of incidences in early adulthood, you generally made it, you could live till 70. I mean, and 80 even, people did, but. The problem, the reason life expectancy is so much shorter in centuries gone by is because so many people died in childbirth and soon after infancy. So the point is, if you live to 50, 100, 150, it doesn't really change the outcome. Death is still the last record that we're on in our jukebox of time. We don't know. The only thing we don't know is the time, place and circumstance of our death. We don't know that, but we know it's coming. Right. We don't like to accept it because it's scary, but it's only scary if you don't understand it. Right. So two things that we'll talk about. One is we'll talk about why death is the greatest clue for purpose, which we'll do right now. And then we'll get back to why it's it's something that shouldn't be feared and what and what it really means. So let's start with the purpose. Mark, as you asked me about that.

Dr. Mark Klein (06:39.086)

Actually, do you want to jump in and say something here before I monopolize the entire conversation?

Enid Borden (06:41.898)

No, it's very important. I think about it a lot, particularly as I'm getting older, and I think about what happens next. So this is an important conversation to have. So go ahead. The floor is yours.

Dr. Mark Klein (06:55.182)

All so the purpose one is really, you have to, it originates in the aerial view. You have to appreciate the aerial view to understand why death is the greatest clue for purpose. So we know from the aerial view is we become this disinterested observer and we're viewing not only all of our life, but all of time. And we see the jukebox of time and the jukebox of time, we know that we're on the first record each of us is on is the day we're born. And the last record we're on is the day that we die. Now, we've talked about this before, and I mentioned this to somebody the other day, actually a person that you know, and I said, you know, everybody's worried, lamenting the fact that we have this last record that we're on, the day of our death, and then we're gonna be sad, we're not on the records going forward. You know, we're gonna miss our kids or grandchildren or friends, whatever, you know, all the people we've loved in our life or care about in our life. But nobody ever says, I am so sad about those records that I was not on before I was born. So in the jukebox of time, you have a small sliver of records you're on from the moment you're born to the moment you die. those records. Now, for some of us, it might be 100 years worth of records. And some people, maybe it's a much shorter number of records. But there is a defined, limited number of records we're on. And we lament the ones that follow the day of our death that were not on those. But we never think about the ones that we weren't on before we were born. Now, people would say, well, who cares? That's a crazy idea. Is it? Is it really so crazy? Again, let's go down a level. Look at the jukebox of time.

Enid Borden (08:27.624)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Klein (08:32.108)

Right now, don't just see the records you're on. See the records that came before you and the records that come after you. So imagine the jukebox of time with all these records and see the ones that you're on as just a very, very tiny slice of all the records. And the ones after you die look no different. than the ones from before that you were on this earth. They all look the same. They're all equivalent records. They're all equivalent moments. So why aren't we concerned about the ones before we came? Why? Because we don't have memories of the ones before, but we have memories of while we're here. And so we think about the records after we're gone. Oh, those moments that we're on, we're going to miss those. But here's the truth. The records that you're on never stop playing. We've talked about this many times. This is the misconception we have of time. Every moment exists in its own slot in space time and never stops playing there just as active as the moment we are now. People have a very hard time wrapping their head around this. I know you've told me you have, but imagine every moment of your life playing simultaneously. That's what happens.

Enid Borden (09:34.164)

me ask you this, but okay, if the record is playing and I'm not there to hear it, how do I know it's playing and am I getting any satisfaction out of listening to that record? See, I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Whatever came before me, I wasn't a part of. Now I'm a part of something. And then when I'm gone, even if the record's going, I'm not part of the record anymore. So how am I to anything out of that?

Dr. Mark Klein (09:47.286)

Well, yeah, sure.

Dr. Mark Klein (09:58.518)

No, no. It's a very difficult concept. It's worth spending time because it is so valuable. It is so important to understanding our purpose and making our lives much less anxious, certainly about death. So yes, you can appreciate the records you were on in your life, the records that you're living on, the ones that have you on them and that will be playing in perpetuity, right? Just because you can't appreciate them. Right now, I guarantee you there's a concert somewhere in Vienna that's playing some beautiful music. You're not part of that. But it's not so hard to understand that, yeah, there's a concert in Vienna. I believe that there's always concerts in Vienna and probably somebody's playing in the chamber of music thing somewhere in Vienna right now. Well, you can't hear it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It exists just because we can't appreciate something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's easy to understand. Right. So you have to kind of take on faith or not faith. You have to take on physics because it's physics that those records are still playing. This is what Einstein tried to tell everybody many, many times. Past, present and future are just a stubborn illusion. All moments are playing simultaneously. simultaneously, all of time is out there. The jukebox of time exists. Some people call it the block universe, but every moment exists. now you don't have to lament the times before. They're still going on. It's such a comfort. You're still with your mother. You're still with your dog. These are people you've lost that you love. You're still with them. Not at this moment. Right now you're with me, unfortunately, and not with your mother or your dog. But

Enid Borden (11:32.298)

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Mark Klein (11:33.816)

But you know, it's step down, I get it. But still those things, you're still with them. We're all still with these people. We're all having these moments now. What does it have to do with purpose? So once you understand that all time exists contemporaneously and forever, the records you're on are playing forever. They are a permanent record, literally in a sense, a different sense of record. are permanent recording or... or what's the right term, history or existing history of your life. They will be going on forever, right? What do you want to be on those records? They're not going away. They're gonna play forever and ever and ever and ever. What do you want to be on those records? So we know longevity cannot be the purpose of life because everybody goes at some point, right? There's no winning the game of longevity, right? There's no winning the game of power or prestige or money or fame. These things all go to zero the moment you're on that last record. You want to ask a question.

Enid Borden (12:33.77)

So then, are we talking about legacy? What will be my legacy?

Dr. Mark Klein (12:39.968)

legacy. That was the word I was looking for. it's not it's your legacy, it's legacy implies a past. But we're not talking about a past. It's always the present. There's only one time in the universe. That time is now. There's only one time. Every moment is now. So we think now is just you and I talking at this moment. But it's not. Every moment exists forever. There are only an in a an unlimited number of nows, an infinite number of nows. That's all that exists. So what do want those nows to be? What do you want those moments to be? What's going to be on those records? What is going to be said about you? What's going to be your recording of your life? Okay, legacy. Right, but it's more than just leave. It's still happening. So if you say, what do I leave? You go, well, 300 years from now nobody's going to remember me anyway. It's not about remembering. It's actually happening.

Enid Borden (13:22.698)

And that's the legacy. What do I lean on?

Dr. Mark Klein (13:37.186)

These moments forever exist. You can't go away. It's as if God is saying, I got my book and by the way, the pages don't burn up after you're gone. They're there forever. I can read the pages of your life forever if you believe in God, right? So that's the point. What is going to be playing on the records of our lives? if longevity isn't the goal and the purpose, because it can't be, then what is? It can't be power, can't be fame, can't be wealth. These things all go to zero. Can't be longevity. Everybody goes, hmm. So there's only two choices left. Either there is no purpose and no meaning, right? Which is a possibility. I can't prove that there is. I think the clues of our life that we've talked about many times on this podcast of why we're here and how life was repetitive and so on, all point to me that there is a purpose. And that purpose cannot be other things we just mentioned. It's gotta be something else. It's gotta be what impact we've had on the lives of others. And we've talked about why that is such an, why that's so obvious. The easiest way to get that is, nothing makes us feel better. It's clearly, clearly really valuable. So that's it. So that tells us why we're here. That's that all these things that we look at from the aerial view tell us that, that, that longevity cannot be the purpose of life. That's why death is such a great clue. Hello, you're going to die. doesn't matter who you are. You can find the most the most powerful person ever to live on the face of this planet is gone, right? Everybody's gone.

Enid Borden (15:12.988)

I'm not sure that longevity is our, I don't know that we sit around thinking I want to live longer. I'm not sure that longevity is our purpose. I'm thinking that, my concern about that is I think you're, in my mind, you're mixing the two. I don't think my purpose is longevity. I would like to live longer if I'm healthy, but I, think that that's got nothing to do with my purpose. Let me ask you, right, okay, so you see your purpose then as you're a physician, was your purpose to make people better? Was your purpose to, I mean, tell me what your, and do you know what your purpose was and is that still your purpose?

Dr. Mark Klein (15:44.77)

Yeah, I agree. I'm saying, longevity is not your purpose. It can't be. Right.

Dr. Mark Klein (16:03.692)

It's the same purpose you've had running a nonprofit for your whole life. It's helping as many people as you can. You told this incredible story about your friend, this gentleman Al, that everybody I've talked to since since...

Enid Borden (16:07.188)

Okay.

Enid Borden (16:14.27)

Yes.

Dr. Mark Klein (16:17.706)

You know, that podcast has was touched by that story. It's a powerful story. How you've affected somebody's life and that's it. What do think you do as a doctor every day? You try and positively affect as many people as you can, but you don't be a doctor to do that. You can be a barista at Starbucks and do that. Everybody can do that. There's, know, we've talked, there's a chapter on book called We All Have the Same Job or something like that, but we all have the same job. What's the job to be as kind and helpful? to as many people as we can in our lives. That's it. That's the story, right? And there are lots of ways to do that. through our efforts, our creations, our work, all the things we do, there's so many ways to impact people. And again, it doesn't matter what your role in life is. Everybody has that thing. That's what death is telling us. It's not about how long you live. You're going to die. Longevity cannot possibly be the goal of life. Forget about it. Don't try and live many days as you can, try and live as many meaningful days as you can. Those are the ones that count. And they're all happening forever. That impact you're having is being felt for eternity. How cool is that? So all those people you helped when you were still helping, but even like when you were on Meals on Wheels and all these efforts, your continuing nonprofit and helping the elderly in terms of hunger, these moments don't go away, Enid. They're forever.

Enid Borden (17:22.409)

I got you.

Dr. Mark Klein (17:45.09)

They are playing on their records in the jukebox of time forever.

Enid Borden (17:49.386)

But okay, and I thank you, I got it. I understand that. But I think that we fear death because it is the end or so, it is the end. mean, that record, even if it continues, you're not a party to it. You're not seeing it. Okay, so we fear death because it's the unknown, right? And we always, don't we fear the unknown? So how do we get over the fact that it is still... I'm leaving behind my children. I'm leaving behind my grandchildren. I want to make sure that they're okay, but I won't know that they're okay. How do I get beyond that?

Dr. Mark Klein (18:30.162)

Once they're adults, they're not your responsibility in the sense that you can't make their lives for them. They now have to make their own lives. They have to make they have to create the records that are meaningful for themselves. We can't do that. So I have four kids, one two grandchildren. We just talked, my wife and I were just talking today about how important parenting is. And I've tried to be a really good parent. I've had my moments. I'm afraid if you ask my kids, they'll roll their eyes because I had plenty of moments, but they all turned out to be great. I think that's, you know, the proof is in the pudding on that. Even though I didn't get it right all the time, I probably got it right enough times, right? So anyway, the but but we can't worry about them. My kids have grown up. They're on not only they are on their own in terms of making a way for themselves, but making a meaningful life. That's up to them. I can't do that. Each of us has our own life. have our own responsibilities on this earth. And in terms of being afraid of the unknown, one of the jokes that probably doesn't fly over very well is I tell people all the time, go, look, are you going to have lunch today? And they go, yeah, I have lunch. I try to have lunch almost every day. Not every day, but I try to have lunch. OK, great. Do you make a big deal out of it? No. Why don't you make a big deal out of He goes, Well, everybody has lunch. Why would I make a big deal out of it? I go, well, guess what? Everybody dies. Why are you making a big deal out of that? Right. And that sounds, what do you mean? You're comparing lunch and death? Yes, I am completely comparing lunch and death. Absolutely I am because they are equally part of life. You don't have lunch, you don't eat. Not good. Right. You have to eat. Eating is part of life. So lunch is a metaphor for a meal. But I just charge lunch because I love that word. But everybody eats lunch, everybody dies. Okay, what's the difference? Well, come on, lunch is just a thing and death is the whole. No, these are both events that are going to occur in your life. You cannot change it. Don't stop thinking about it that way. You can't do everything right and avoid death. It is part of your story. And here's what it is.

Dr. Mark Klein (20:37.59)

It's the last rective you're actively on. But the records you've been on in your jukebox of time play forever. We never really lose anyone. No one ever really dies. Because you can't die if you're still alive on all those records that existed from the moment of your birth to the moment of your death, your lifespan. You are on those. They are playing forever. I am not making this up. This is not a metaphor. This is science. This is physics.

Enid Borden (21:06.13)

You, you as a physician confronted death every single day. You had patients who came in and you looked at their x-rays or their MRIs or your cats, whatever, and realized first, this person's got terminal cancer or whatever. So you've, you've confronted death. And then in turn, you had to tell the patient in some way, or form. that they too inevitably would have to confront death. How did you handle that? And how did they end?

Dr. Mark Klein (21:42.744)

You know, there. Well, first of all, I think we've talked about this. I don't know if you talked on the podcast, you and I have. So, you know, one of the number one. Responsibility of a doctor. I believe. Is to be a source of. hope, inspiration, and comfort, right? Anybody can read off a lab test. Anybody can look at a CT image or an ultrasound and read that off. I could teach anybody to do that, right? So what's the difference between that and being a physician, a real physician? It's your interaction with the patient. That's the part that counts. So I would look at a study, and this happened a lot. It wasn't every day, but it was heck of a lot of times. I would look at something go, my God, I know what this is. This is not gonna end well. And I had a practice where I spoke to most of the patients. So I wasn't like sitting in a dark room somewhere, know, a thousand miles away at a monitor. I saw most of my patients. And I had a responsibility, I felt, okay, I can lie to this patient and say, I'll tell your doctor or something like that. Will you tell somebody like something like that? And they know you know the answer, you say, well, I'll let your doctor know, then you're scaring them to death. That's the worst thing you can do. The best thing you can do is is give them the information in a way that gives them hope and comfort.

Enid Borden (22:59.562)

You bet.

Dr. Mark Klein (23:06.56)

and something to lean on. I think I've told you this, whenever I give somebody a diagnosis of some type of cancer, I wouldn't let the patient leave the office until I made their next appointment. Because to just say to somebody, know, unfortunately, this looks like it's malignant, you're going to need some treatment and good luck. No, I would say, look, I'm concerned about this. And they say, could it be cancer? I go, it could be because. You know, if you're afraid to say the word cancer, the patient's got it in his or her head. You can't ignore it. They're thinking it. So just not saying it yourself doesn't make it go away. So you have to say it. So I say, yes, it could be cancer. A, every cancer, almost everything's treatable these days. B, you just have to think about the next step, and I'm going to help you with the next step. So I pick up the phone and call the oncologist or somebody, whoever it was that I want to go a surgeon who I want them to get an appointment with. And I personally would make that appointment for them. Because at least then I can say, OK, go see Dr. So-and-so on Tuesday and we'll get you going. And like I said, everything's treatable. Just think about the next step. Don't think about the whole thing, because most people go immediately from that moment in my office to death. Boom. Right.

Enid Borden (24:14.836)

Correct.

Dr. Mark Klein (24:18.414)

hardly any of them are gonna die anytime soon. mean, some are gonna, you the worst cases would die in a few months, that's rare. Most would die in years, could be two, three, four, five, eight, 10 years, you don't know, it depends on the tumor, right? So it's not like the cards, you turn over the cards and that's end of the game. That's very unusual. Happens rarely, right? So if you help them with that, then that's, you know, that... It's about as good as you can do at that point. You can't take the disease away, but you can give them hope and give them direction and get them set up for their next appointment and say, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna think about this and we're gonna think about this after that. And after that, we'll do this one thing at a time. And that's very powerful to patients. That helps them a lot.

Enid Borden (25:00.414)

Yeah, and that's the point. I think that's why we equate doctors sometimes with God, because you hold, we think, you hold our fate in your hands and we get nervous and we are worried about death. It's an interesting conversation to have to talk about death because so many of us fear it. That's why I think the New York Times did this entire section on death. And one of the things that it said was, I'd like to read something else. says, Ernest Becker wrote a thing called The Denial of Death, that humans are hardwired to fear their own mortality. When death looms, it may feel callous or defeatist, wrong even, to acknowledge it. So often, we just don't. And I think what you're telling us is we need to acknowledge it. We need to understand that death We should not fear death, that it is inevitable, but that we have to understand that it helps us maybe to help us to define what our purpose is. And that's what we ought to be doing. And that's the way we ought to be living our lives, correct?

Dr. Mark Klein (26:10.926)

100%. I think you actually summed that up beautifully. Yes, death is a clue. It's inevitable. It's like lunch. It's going to happen, right? Don't be afraid of it. It's happened to billions of people before you. You cannot avoid it, which tells you it can't be that big a deal. If every human goes through it, it's part of life. It's just another page in your story. It happens to be the last page of the active story. Remember all the pages that you're on, all those records you're on, they're living forever. They exist forever. They do not go away. There are only nows. There's only an infinite number of nows in the universe. There's no past. There's no present and future. They're all

Enid Borden (26:20.873)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Klein (26:50.818)

just records. in the jukebox of time, all just moments. They are all equivalent. No one is more important than the other. So you have to accept death as one of those moments. And remember, you're still alive in all the moments before that. So what do want those records to be? What do you want to be on those records? Why are we here? To take care of others. Once we reach maturity, to get to the point where we've reached the point in our lives where we have the ability to take care of others. And that can happen very young, as you know. Some people mature very, very quickly and get that very, very quickly. Some of us get it a lot later. But once you do that, that becomes your focus. That becomes your responsibility. Now, it doesn't mean you don't try and have a great career. You don't become educated. You don't learn. No, no. These are the things are all important to get you to become what we call a person of substance. You need to become a person of substance and you need to do all those things in your life to accrue those accomplishments, to become a person of substance who can then go on and really give maximum value to others. But that is absolutely not to be feared. It is no different than lunch or any other moment of your life. It seems like it is. We swear that it is, but it's not. And the way we know this is because in the jukebox of time, every moment is equivalent. The moments that existed before your birth, before the first record you're on, are absolutely indistinguishable from the moments on those records after your death. They are all equivalent. Don't worry about the ones before you're born. We only concern ourselves with the ones after we're gone. That's another of life's illusions. It is an illusion. This is why the aerial view is so critical to understanding that to where you are in the world, what your purpose is, all moments are equivalent, all time exists contemporaneously, remove yourself, become the independent observer. And look at this in a in a objective manner. And then you see it, then you understand and you the light goes on and you go, Oh, yeah, I understand now. I'm only here for a limited amount of time. It's what I do when I'm here that accounts.

Dr. Mark Klein (28:50.262)

Death is not to be feared. It's just another moment of my life. It happens to be the last moment on this earth as we know it. We don't know what comes next. Now, I'm betting something does. Could I be wrong? Sure, I could be wrong. But I think the clues point to something coming next. I don't have any idea what it is. I'm pretty sure it doesn't include 72 virgins, but there's some manifestation afterwards. I don't know what it is, but that's the message.

Enid Borden (29:14.09)

and leave. But you have to you believe that. You believe that there is something afterwards that there may be. Whatever you choose.

Dr. Mark Klein (29:22.58)

I choose to, I choose to, and I choose to for a reason. It's not just because I hope so. I choose to because I think the clues point to that. We are in preparation. Our lives are in preparation. We've talked about this. We're dumb when we're young. We're smart when we're old. It's completely backwards. We repeat everything that's gone on. Every person who's been on this earth before us, the lessons of life repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, both as individuals and in terms of societies. These are all powerful clues. And You know, we didn't talk about this and we won't today, but when we talk about physics, we talked a little bit of physics today about Einstein showing us at all times contemporaneous, but quantum physics tells us another crazy story, right? That things, that there's an infinite number of ways for things to work out. And so. It may be that true that maybe an infinite number of universes. The fact that we're in this universe at this time in this life in this place, these have meaning. They are clues to why we're here. And so I think they all point to the fact that we are here for a purpose that they were here to prepare and we're here to prepare for what comes next. And I have no idea what it is. So but I think that's why I feel that way. I just look at the clues and I go, you know, I just deduce that this is what it's telling us. I'm not I'm not selling this to anybody, but. the older I get, the more convinced I've become.

Enid Borden (30:37.386)

Well, that's a good note to end on. And this went really fast. I think it is something we need to continue to think about. Kind of like, and what I've gotten out of this podcast is I really want to go have lunch anyway, but I don't want to die, but I'd like to have lunch anyway. want to thank you for this. This is good. think we need to keep harking on the fact that we are all in this. We're all going to die. Nothing to be fearful about. And I can convince myself of that. Then I'm really happy.

Dr. Mark Klein (30:43.342)

Kind of like life.

Enid Borden (31:06.644)

But I do think, please.

Dr. Mark Klein (31:06.702)

Can I finish with a little quote? You usually have a quote at the end. Can I finish with a quote?

Enid Borden (31:10.666)

It's all yours. Yes.

Dr. Mark Klein (31:14.318)

Thank you. Well, there was this physicist, he actually lives in New York, he's very well known, his name is Michio Kaku. He's also an author, he's written many books. And here is what he said in one of his books. Fearing the transition, being afraid of death is like being afraid of reality itself, like being afraid of the sun, whatever for.

Enid Borden (31:38.502)

Amen. Thank you.

Dr. Mark Klein (31:39.594)

Amen. Thank you, Enid, for another great topic. This one gave me the chills a little bit. But thank you all for listening and we will see you next time.

Enid Borden (31:48.7)

Absolutely. Peace.