Episode 59: Interview with Steve Muscato

Welcome to Wisdom from the Aerial View, the podcast for those who wish to learn how to crush their anxiety and find meaning and purpose in their lives. Good morning. I am joined today by two very attractive men. Lucky, lucky me. So, you all know, those of you who have been listening to our show now, we've been on, we're probably nominated for Golden Glo Globe this weekend for podcasts. By the way, the Giving Golden Globes podcast now. Um, so you know Dr. Mark Klein, Dr. Mark Klein and I do this uh every week, but today we're joined by a friend of mine and his name is Steve Mscato. Let me tell just a little bit about Steve. He's a son of Illinois, went to school in Iowa, um, and now lives in Tennessee. So he's been all over the place, uh, in the middle of the country, not on the East Coast, but we will accept that. Steve, welcome to the show. We're we're glad to have you.

It's great to be here.

One of the things I love to do, Mark knows this, I love to and Mark does this too. We like to have I don't want to have just friends that are mine. I want to have share my friends. So, I said to Mark, I'd like to share with you my friend Steve. Let me just briefly say I met Steve many many many years ago uh when I was working at the the Meals on Wheels Association of America. How did I meet Steve? Steve worked in corporate America. Am I allowed to say who you worked for, Steve? Uh, sure.

He was a big shot at Bridgestone and of course those are tires, those wheels, wheels on wheels, Bridgestone. What a great company they are. they were they were very generous to us and Steve um who ran a huge department over there uh became a very close friend of mine and I adore him and uh I said this is a man who understands a lot of things in life and I'm I know I'm I'm going overboard but let me let me just read this Mark if I might and tell you a little bit about what you what Steve wrote. Steve and I have been talking about aging because Meals and Wheels is for people who are el older older adults. So, we've been talking about aging for years. And he wrote something interesting. He wrote, "Aging doesn't automatically lead to significance. In leadership, and I want to spend a lot of time today talking about leadership, time passes whether we're intentional or not. Years add up. Experience stacks up. Titles and responsibilities get bigger. But many leaders discover something unsettling. They're aging, but they're not sure they're becoming more significant. Unsure that time alone is doing the deeper work they hoped it would. That tension is worth paying attention to. Significance doesn't come from simply from passing time in the position. It comes from what we do with the seasons we're given. It asks different questions than success does. And I wanted the two of you to get together because I think in many respects you think the same way. So that's this very long introduction. Um, and one of the other things you talk about is perspective, presence, and meaning. So let's dive in. Mark, you know what? This is crazy, but Mark, go ahead. You start. Ask the first question. Go ahead. Let me put you on the spot. Yeah.

So I met Steve about five minutes ago. Uh, and I already like the guy. So he has uh, it's clear we're on the same we're on the same wave thing. This will be a very interesting discussion. You know, you hadn't read to me before what you just read for all our listeners.

Of course. All right. Steve, Steve, by the way, she doesn't tell me anything, right? So, it's it's always a surprise. Uh, at any rate, I think that was that was, you know, that was so well written and so thoughtful. I was I was going to I thought we could have a hallelujah or an amen after that because it was so poignant. Uh, I you know, that the way you described aging and and that success is not the same as having a meaningful life. So, you know, so I would like to start uh by asking Steve, what has motivated you to focus on uh on the issues you're spending time on right now? And you should actually tell the listeners that you also have a podcast so when they get get done with us, they can immediately transfer over to yours. But why don't you tell us what you're focused on now uh at this point in your in your career, in your life?

Oh, wow. Um, well, what I'm focusing on right now as as I wrote and as we're talking about is is significance. Um, we get to a point in our lives where what we've done um just isn't cutting it anymore. Um, you know, so I read a book uh about a year ago called Halime uh by Bob Buford. It's a book basically talks about that gap between success and significance. The things that you built in your life. So this is your work, this is your your family, this is all that stuff. Um it gets to a point where you just want more. You want more significance. You want to matter. Uh you want what you do to mean something to yourself and to others. And so as I've been working with leaders in the marketing and strategy space, I keep coming back to the leaders who are who are struggling with that very same thing. They're like, "Hey, I built this great company, but I just need to be, you know, more intentional about being, you know, really doing things that matter." So that's the space that my own life journey has taken. Um, you know, I, as Enid had said, I've come from corporate America doing corporate America things. Um, I started my own business, had to start over. Um, and now it's just I'm to this point in my life where, um, I just want to matter as well. Uh, and and not in a uh, give me an award type of space, but just I want to do things that are intentionally significant and meaningful to others. So, okay, that's a really good place to jump off from because you know what I always what I like to do and need to know is I like to dig down a couple of layers from the surface like why things are you know I'm I I become this ridiculous iconic class in my uh in my life starting off from the kid who always colored between the lines and and never would never did anything really that anybody would raise their eyebrows about uh to getting to the point where I think most conventional wisdom uh is wrong. It's almost always wrong and and digging down a little bit to find out why things are. So, unfortunately, you've landed in in my sweet spot right now. So, why do you think that you want to find meaning or let's as you described it um significance, wanting to matter? Why do you think you are motivated to do that? You know, I I think it's human nature that we, you know, especially as we um add up the years and we realize that there's less of them coming that we want to make sure that our time is spent wisely. And so, I'm to the point in my life where people my age, my my my people are getting cancer. They're dying. Uh parents are dying. Um, you know, you look at the news, our childhood heroes, our the musicians that we listen, I mean, it's all disappearing. And so, we get to this point in our lives where I think we're like, we look differently at our own mortality, and it's like, okay, I want to make sure that I end strong. I want to really lean into why I was put on this earth, you know? So, um I think it's natural for us to um want to go deeper and to do things that really matter. I we we have time constraints. I want to make sure that the things that I'm doing is worth my time basically.

So, what I find fascinating about this is that you said something. You just said it's human nature to want to matter, to want to do things of significance. But what exactly? And I'm not putting you on the spot. This is a great jumping off point for what we talk about all the time. So you've discovered this, not discovered, be focused on this at this point in your life. But and you said we have a limited number of days. There's only so many days we have in our life and especially now that you're getting closer to the end. So looking at you, I don't think you're anywhere near the end. So I think you got a really long way to go. So uh because you look very young. So I would say that how would you have like would it have been an advantage to you or to anybody we can focus on you to have real made had this realization 30 years ago or or I don't know how old you are but you know 30 40 years ago whatever uh because the truth that was the truth then also by the way you had a certain number of days on this earth you had no idea where they are now all of a sudden it's becoming uh you're realizing it more because you look in the mirror you go I'm not I'm not 16 anymore, but would that have made an a difference you had? You had this appreciation or had somebody uh helped explain this to you earlier in your life. You think it would have made any difference?

No. No, I don't because stupidity is is what we do when we're young. I would have ruined it. I would have totally blown it. Um, I think we need to get to a point where where we have to realize, you know, I mean, I valued a lot different things when I was younger. Um, so I don't think that I would have appreciated the wisdom that I would have had when I was 16 or 25 or 30. So, um, I think I had to get to this point. I had to go through those experiences and see them not just to live through them but to reframe them, you know. So I look at your book um the whole idea of the book is to rise up to the area of view to really reframe what you went through and see it for what it was. So, I'm looking back in my life now and I'm looking at those experiences that I thought were really bad, really negative, and I realized that no, those had to happen. And because of that, because of that season I was in, I learned so much that allowed me to move into the next season with a little bit more wisdom, a little bit more refinement, so I can build from that and really craft the next season of my life, which is aligning myself with what I feel is my purpose.

You know, it's interesting. You're talking about seasons and we've been on this podcast for about a year now talking about moments and time and and we had um a podcast not that long ago with Dr. Ellen Langanger and she talked about moments

and you're talking about seasons and it's the same thing. We're really talking basically about the same thing. But one of the things that I loved about you when I met you, yes, you were in the corporate world, but you also did something else while you were doing that. You were a volunteer. Not only did your company give us money and a lot of money, that was great, but you said, "No, no, no. That's not enough. I want to do something personally, and you did volunteer work." And I think to this day, you're still doing that, aren't you?

Yeah. Yeah.

And And why? Tell us why you do that. I mean, you got a very busy schedule. You're looking at things. You're wondering about your future. And I know that you your mom is living with you, and I know she's not doing that well,

and that confronts you every single day,

okay? and yet you take the time, you take the effort, and you go and volunteer. How come you do that?

Yeah. Um it goes back to um one of my favorite quotes from Ramdas. We're just here to walk each other home. We're all on this journey. You know, we we have different paths to take, but at the end of the day, we're all going to the same place hopefully. And life is hard. Life is hard for for many people. And I look at my life, I'm like, "Okay, I have nothing to complain about. It could be a lot worse." And if I can just help someone make it through another day or bring them a smile, it it it does it does more for me. I mean, we've heard that a lot of times like the volunteers are the ones who really get out of it. Um, but it's true where it really helps me in my perspective. It helps to ground me and to know that I've made a human connection. So, that's really what what motivates me to do that. And so, back when I was there to present a really big check physically and with the numbers on it, I had no skin in the I didn't raise that money. I was the guy who presented you a check. Yes, I was part of the team who created the programs, who connected with the people who donated the I mean, so I was a part of it, but it wasn't me. So that was the disconnect. So I got to present that check and then the next day I went back and I I actually served a meal to a to a senior and that's what brought it all home. that what took those dollars and made it it made it real and it personally connected me to the mission. You know, there are two topics that uh you just mentioned that I want to get to. One of them is what you just said that when you when volunteers for somebody when you do something for somebody else I I love that phrase walking everybody each person home but uh when you do something we talk about this probably every week that the greatest source of joy you can have in your life is when you successfully help someone else it's quite amazing. Yeah.

Uh and I always say you know it's in a way selfish because once you do it you realize how great you feel and you want to do it again. Being a physician for many years, I saw I think I've told told the in knows I've seen over 100,000 patients personally face to face.

Wow.

And so I've talked to every one of them maybe for a minute, maybe for 15 minutes, whatever. It doesn't matter. I've never for a minute, but I've talked to a lot of people. And when you help someone, a physician, you have a real you have a great opportunity. You can help somebody every day if you if you're willing to put the littlest bit of effort into right to care to show to show that you want to you want you you're there to help them not just to fill out a form and get a paycheck then once you do this it's an addiction right you love it it's like oh my god I feel so great and so you do it more and more and more so that's the first thing the other thing so I want you to expand on that in a minute the other thing I want to talk about maybe we'll start with this one is you said something super interesting to me so I asked you if you had known this earlier in your life, would you have made a difference? And you said flat out, no. And I thought, great. And then you said, because I had to go through all these experiences, and this is another thing we talk about, life in a way is peculiar when you stop and think about it, that we'd be much better off being smart when we're young than when we're old. Because when we're if we were smart when we're young, we wouldn't jump off of cliffs. We wouldn't drive 100 miles an hour. We wouldn't smoke cigarettes or vape. You know, we we might, but we'd certainly be aware and we might do a lot less of it. Accidents used to be the number one cause of death among adolescence. Now, unfortunately, it's suicide, I think. But still, we'd be a lot better if we were smarter when we're young, but we're not. We're smartest when we're near the end. In fact, unless you get dementia, and I'm not even sure we talked, I'm not even sure what happens when you get dementia, but I think you learn right to the end. You're the smartest probably on the last day of your life. Well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense in terms of uh survival of the fittest. So it is very interesting that we're required to go through the experiences that you so eloquently describe. We have to do this. So let's talk a little bit about you know the fact that why experiences are so important in making this evolution. Let's start with that and then we'll go back to the one of our favorite topics that you talked about is feeling so good when you when you help people. So let's talk a little bit about about experience in your personal life as you watch yourself make this evolution because you have made an evolution. That's really what you're talking about. Let's talk a little about tell tell us about the experiences in your life that that really molded you and kept moving you forward that in retrospect you can actually see. Is that a fair question?

It's a tough one.

Yeah. Well, you know, you you asked about you know why we have to go through these seasons. You know, I think without going through them and experiencing them, we tend to stay as as you put it in the book in the podcast, in the inward view. So those experiences and the seasons allow us to interact with others and in situations that help force us to take the outward view, you know. So, so I'm going into a season in my own way, but whatever happens, it affects me in a way that brings in different viewpoints and different opinions and people and and other experiences. It kind of changes. If if I just went into a season and not had everything affect me, those experiences, I don't think I would learn out of that. Right. and and you're now working with other people to get them to you're working with leaders, right? And that's what you're you're doing. And you're working with what's the issue that they are having, if I I can say, problems with what is it that you're spiritually leading them on? What path? What is it that that why do they come to you?

Well, it's not specifically spiritually. Um if they are spiritual, great. And if they're not, it opens a door to a conversation. Um, but that's not the intent. Yes, I work with leaders. Um, it's typically in the realm of, hey, let's get my marketing and my strategy all put together. We do that, but then it's like, hey, can I talk to you? Yeah. Um, and that leads into the I can't tell anybody this, but I really don't feel like I know what I'm doing here. You know, that imposttor syndrome comes in,

right? And that permeates beyond the boardroom. It goes into their lives. And so that's where they are feeling something and they really don't know how to express it. When you're at the top, you really don't have a lot of close adviserss. The people who come into your office are the yes men and women. They tell you what you want to hear and you can't get a straight answer and you can't be open and honest. Um, so who do they have to talk to? And so what I do is I come in and and we do talk we do talk about the significance. So what we do on the business side which is aligning your business, your marketing, your teams, your strategy to the mission of the organization, we can do that with ourselves as well. I mean what's your mission? What's your purpose? And then that goes into the alignment of is everything in your life aligning to what you say is important to you. And that's what I meant about spiritual. That's what I meant. Yeah.

Yeah. So, spiritually, yes. Are you aligned with who God wanted you to be? If you're not, you know, there's still alignment that needs to happen.

So, going back to the very beginning of our podcast here, we're talking about health and wellness. Well, I'm looking at at um my mother. I'm looking at older people who can't pick anything up, who, you know, are with canes and stuff. It's like I'm not going to be like that. You know, my viewpoint is I want to be healthy. Healthy enough to do whatever I want so I can be free to do whatever I want no matter how old I am. So I lift heavy things in the morning, not because I want to, but because that's in alignment to what I want, what I think is significant in my life. You know, I just want to comment on this that on that particular uh point. I think it's I think everybody should exercise as often as they can. I do the same thing. I exercise almost every day. Um I think people should do what they can as little as they can like lift weights, you know, do do hard things, whatever. And I agree with you.

But I can tell you, you can do everything right and it will increase the probability that you'll stay healthy and we'll be able to pick up things and do what you said, but a lot of this is out of your control,

right? And so I have friends who uh who are getting not none of them are super duper old, but you know are lamenting the fact that they can't do this and they can't do that. And some of them have not taken care of themselves and having a whole lot of trouble and they're not really old enough to be having that much trouble because they didn't take care of themselves. But some people have and even then they can't. So I don't think we can rely on our physical bodies. Uh uh I I like to say Enid me say this that there is this mind body connection of course or this as as um Dr. the language would say a mind body unity. She doesn't like the word connection. But I would say yes, that's true. Very true. But your mind and your body are not necessarily the best of friends, right? And your body is a good chance we'll let you down at some point. So we can't really rely on that. We should do I agree with you. Do everything you can, but you can't rely on it. You know, you talk to these executives about meaning and purpose and why they're here and aligning all these things together. Uh why do you think we're here? Well, that's a deep question.

Well, it's a deep podcast.

It's a deep podcast.

Um, you know, obviously we we always ask ourselves this question um at different times in our in our lives, the good times, the bad times. Um, you know, I think why we are here is is really just to have a human experience. it is to be with the other three billion people in this world and interact in a way that that really just provides meaning. Um life and you know creation has its own science and chemistry and the fact that we are one little planet and there's an unfathomable uh vast universe out there. It just points the fact that we're here for a very short time with these people and we're just supposed to interact and make a difference and really just um have relationships with with people with creation with uh with with with God if we are into that. Um really it's just to find meaning find purpose and to connect with others. I think

the reason I ask you is because uh let me ask you this question. We've lost Enid for a minute. I'm sure she'll be back. But uh so now you stuck with me for a few minutes. So that implies that that you do believe that because that there is meaning. There's two choices. Either we're here for no reason and we're just a chemistry experiment and survival of the fittest and genetic uh evolution and mutations and so on or we are here for a reason. So that's the first question. So I'm going to guess you're in the latter camp that we you believe we are here for a reason. Yeah. And I assume that's because you have this sense that you talked about this this you call human nature um I don't know how to describe it but you somehow you have this sense that there is that there is a purpose that it's not just a random act of chemistry and I'm wondering a if you think in your conversations with executives and other people in your experience in your life you feel that mo that most people have this sense do you think that's a kind of a universal sense that people have

um I do and I Think that comes from people just want to matter simply they just they just want to know that they've made a difference somewhere somehow with the executives as they are you know you don't become an executive just overnight you have to build towards that you have to make all these decisions about I want to be a CEO and you have to do the hard things um so your focus is on shareholder value and growth and all these things that to build a business and to build a legacy that sometimes is in congruent to your personal need to um uh for that significance. So how do your executives respond when you bring them into that realm uh when you move away from branding and marketing and all that and you get them into that personal realm? How do they respond? um very uncomfortably because their value and their identity is tied to their position, to their output, to their title, to their desk.

Um so when we talk about okay well if you leave what happens to all of that stuff um and it becomes very uncomfortable because as I've said they've spent so many years building their own narrative, building their own legacy and if that goes away then who who are they?

Who are they? You know, I experienced this um you know, after when Enan and I, you know, we talked about me being at Bridgestone, I got to a point where at no fault of Bridgestone, I just had my Jerry Maguire moment. I had to I wrote my own manifesto and I said, I've I've got to leave. And again, it was no fault of the company. And um so I decided to start my own business. When I started my own business, I realized that all those people who were there to say, "Hey, if you start your own business, I'll be there to support you. I'm I'm by your side." The first month of my my business, I sat there thinking, "What did I do?" Because my value, my identity, my my credentials, everything was tied into a position that I walked away from. And so now I had to build from the from the very beginning and build that up again. So when I talk to executives about, you know, is this really who you want to be? Is this aligned with what you feel is your purpose? And they're sensing that, well, not really. Then they're like, okay, well, if I leave, I'm back to just being Steve. I'm not CEO Steve,

right?

And that's very uncomfortable. And so how do so at that point do they say do they get it say okay now to build I need to build a persona not based on my title and my position is that their next do they I'm sure you help them with that is that the idea to to to create that that alternate persona that is not dependent on their achievement let's say

well I am not a life coach and I'm not an executive coach who will help walk them through all of that I mean really the lane that I'm that that I I'm in right now is just helping them name that tension to validate the fact that they're feeling something and it's worth leaning into. It's worth discovering. It's worth u reflecting and to figure out why they're feeling this and if it's truly part of their journey from what they built into what they're built for, you know.

Yeah. You know what? this listeners that you're not going to hear Enid anymore today because unfortunately her internet crashed and so uh she has just sent me a text with her uh condolences. Uh but but Steve and I are going to we're going to continue and finish up here in a few minutes. But you know, one of the things Steve that you uh you said was was earlier is about this uh these seasons, this evolution through these different seasons

that looking to find meaning and purpose, which is really what Enan and I talk about every week.

Yeah. You know, when I mentioned before that it's peculiar that we are kind of dumb when we're young and older at the and smarter at the end when we're older, it seems to be backwards. It kind of nicely dubtales into your into what you're talking about that we need to have this experience as you described earlier. We need to go through those experience. If we tell somebody when they're 20, oh by the way, here's a book or even when they're 15, here's a book. Read this book. This is life. This is what you're supposed to do. Now go ahead and do it. That wouldn't work. Life is experiential. We have to exper now why why is life experiential? It seems crazy. It's dangerous. It's dangerous to have life experiential. Things could happen. You could, you know, get hit by a bus. You could have, you know, some terrible thing happen to you. I'm I used to joke that it's amazing to me that anybody ever leaves their bedroom. The world can be dangerous, right? But it's when you realize why you're here that that you're learning, you're evolving. And I like to say to me, and I I always say to people, I'm not trying to sell you anything. You're welcome to believe what you want. But to me the evidence the things we're talking about point to that life that we are here for a reason and that reason you said to live a life to live a human life basically to experience a life and I think it's because and I I like to say life is preparation. We're doing this for a reason. It's not just this random thing. You're dumb when you're young for a reason. You experience things for a reason. You reach the end and you're and you go, "Oh, I sort of get it now." Right. Oh, I wish I had known this when I was earlier, but as you said, you probably wouldn't have listened. Yeah. Uh, and so this this idea of life is preparation is very powerful. I can't prove it. I have no evidence. I don't know what happens next. But I think the clues and exactly what you're talking about lead us to a conclusion that hm if we're here for a reason and that reason is to make this evolution to be less focused on ourselves and more focused on others because as you said that's where the joy is. To me that's that's the biggest clue. We love doing that.

Uh then then all these things point to life being preparation and us to be here for a reason. And I think your particular experience is just so uh emblematic or so uh perfect for for this for this metaphor because you you've lived it and you are living it and just just to listen to you uh talk about you know the fact that you left a position you left your identity trying something else. You know this is this is really what this is all about. So I think you know people listen to Ian and I every week they're sick of us. But when we get somebody like you on, right, who's doing this every day, you're taking care of your mother. You've you you've evolved in your career and personally, you know, I think that you're you're you're a great example of of exactly the kind of things we're talking about.

Yeah. Um you had asked, you know, why do we why why do I feel that we have to go through these seasons or, you know, if someone had given us a book? two people can go through the very same experience and come out with two different viewpoints and and marching orders from that experience, you know. So, if we were all given the book of life, here is how things are supposed to be. Here's how to live loving each other and not starting wars and all these other these other things. Um, one, we all wouldn't read the book and we would come out with that something different. I mean, you and I can go to the very same same movie, same experience, and come out with two completely different takeaways. And that's because of our experience, our mindset, what we've been through. You've been through things that I haven't been through and vice versa. So that's where the meeting someone where they are, back to the volunteering, back to us giving oursel and thinking outwardly, it allows us to see other people's viewpoints and to be able to take that and figure out, you know, what to do with that and how to apply it to our own lives. Here we are in this very divisive nation. Now Eden and I have a rule. I have a rule, no politics on the podcast, you know, and it's not just because, as Michael Jordan says, Republicans buy sneakers, too. You know, why cut off half your listenership? But it's not that's not really the reason because we're not doing this for, you know, for a living. This we're not, you know, we're not making any money on a podcast.

But, uh, so, but the reason I don't want to talk about politics is because it misses what what I consider the point about things you're talking about, why we're here, and that's what the aerial view is all about. It's it's it's another perspective to understand that what you as as you said earlier that we are here for a limited time that all history repeats itself that human experiences repeat itself. There is not a single emotion or experience you have had in your life that billions of other people haven't had. Right. It these are universal themes. The story of life doesn't change. Just the set changes.

Yeah.

And I think you're spot on that you have to go through these experiences. And I love that you said you wouldn't have been you would have paid no attention when you were younger. So I think I think your message is is uh resonates very well and um you know we unfortunately this is or maybe fortunately this is a an audio only podcast. We don't we don't do video. My wife told me at the beginning after seeing the first episode she said yeah I think you should just do audio. So anyway, but I'm watch I can see you and I can see your you have a um and by the way Steve and I have not met before we doing this interview and Steve know each other a long time but I'm looking at this gentleman and he has a certain calm a certain uh peacefulness about him uh and that tells me a lot about this evolution that you've made personally and I think is uh I I think is just really u like I said a great example of of what we really want to do in our lives. Yes, we can't we can't we don't know how many days we have. We don't know when the end is coming. We don't know what our physical condition is going to be. But I think the fact that you have focused your life now on uh recognizing that that we're here for a reason that helping other people is the key. What we talk about all the time,

you know, it's nice to hear somebody else say it besides uh Enid and me. So,

at anyway, unfortunately, we lost Enid. Her internet crashed. I feel terrible because I know how much she is looking forward to this. So I want to we're so we we're going to wrap up. Usually Enid reads something she has written uh read somewhere or something you have read and unfortunately I am not prepared to do that but I want to just thank you so much for taking this time with us. I I hope I think we should probably do this again if that'd be okay with you.

Would you also tell people about your podcast? Tell them the name of it and

Yeah. Yeah. So the uh podcast is called Crafted Clarity and the uh podcast is about helping leaders and others distill the tension between what we've built and what we built for. Um so what we built is our lives, our businesses, our careers, our family. We built all that, but we get to a point in our lives where we need to figure out as as we just talked um what it what what's it all for? Why why am I built the way I am? Um, so it's all around the metaphors of whiskey. Um, so back in 2020 when we were all finding new hobbies, I found uh whiskey not so much as uh a drink of choice, but because I just fell in love with the process of distillation. You take yeast and water and and grains and you turn it into something incredible. Uh but there's a whole process of taking those raw materials and becoming what you see on the shelves. Um aging and time and pressure and loss. So there's a lot of life metaphors in the whiskey making process. So it's not whiskey heavy. So if you don't drink whiskey, you don't know anything about it. You might learn a few things. It's not over your head. Um it just brings a little bit of depth to the conversation. And again, it's really just about meeting people in this tension of, hey, I I just lost my job and I can't find a new job. You know, what am I supposed to be doing in this moment? So, um, we have new podcasts every Thursday. They're also on YouTube. Um, you can find all the information, all the links at craftedclarity.net. Um, that's the uh website. You can get to Instagram, YouTube, all that stuff. They're all posted there and uh you can reach me through there and um more than happy to uh talk to anyone who is in this position in their life where they're just trying to figure out okay uh Mark and Ena, you help me get to the aerial view. Um now I'm changed. What do I do next? Okay, the next thing

some whiskey

I've got some whiskey. Pull up a chair. We'll have a conversation. But the but the idea is you help people pull up to the aerial view,

but then inev inevitably we have to go back down to the street view.

Absolutely.

I want them to be changed after you pull them up. I want them to go back to the street view to have a different viewpoint on

on the humanity that we all share.

Yeah. Well, that's perfect. I agree. We we do live in the street view. You know, people say to me, "Well, the stuff you're talking about is is, you know, out there." And I go, "No, no, no. It's just to help you do exactly what you said. You need to take it from the aerial view into the street view. Steve, I can't thank you enough. You are a great guy. Very interesting guy. Um, anybody who meets you, I'm sure, wants to be your friend right away. You have that aura about you. And now I know and the whiskey. Now I know why Enid was so anxious to to have you on our show. I I hope we will do this again. I I thank you very much for taking the time. And everybody, I for Enid, I will say goodbye. Thank you all for listening. She always says peace and I always say see you next time. Take care.

Right. Bye.