Episode 58: Interview with Bruce Levenson

Thank you, Enid. Yes, I would like to introduce an old friend of mine, a great guy, Bruce Levinson. So Bruce has a long resume, but I'm just going to shorten it so we don't spend too much time. He's probably best known for founding and running a United Communications Group, a large communications company that he founded a long, long time ago, believe, above your father's store or something like that, if I remember the story correctly. Bruce is the original self-made man.

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He built a fantastic business and at one point owned a national basketball association team and its arena. He's done a lot of different things. the reason we want to have Bruce on today is not because he's a fantastic businessman or even because he's a fantastic guy. We're to talk about the thing that I think is probably nearest and dearest to his heart and something that melds very well with what Enid has been doing in her life, and that's philanthropy. So I want to welcome Bruce to wisdom from the area of view. Bruce, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for joining us. And you can say hi to everybody. So I'm going to let Enid take over because as Bruce says, I think you know, Enid was CEO of Meals on Wheels for over 20 years.

Good morning, Mark. Good morning, Nice. Enid Borden (01:34.99) Good morning. Good morning.

She has another foundation which she had started. She's the CEO and founder of the National Foundation to End Senior Hunger. So she's been involved in the nonprofit world, feeding people, especially older people, but really committing her life to the other end of what you do. So she's happy to take money from people like you so she can do great things in the world. So I'm going to let Lena jump in here and we'll take off from there. Enid Borden (02:08.566) Yeah, thank you, Mark. I am so happy to have you on today, because I think what you do is so important. You make this country a better place in which to live. I wanted to talk a little bit today about two things. We talk about charity, which is a word I never use. I don't particularly like the word charity. I've never used it. I've involved in the nonprofit world for over 40 years, and I don't run a charity. on the opposite side of this is the whole notion of philanthropy. So I just wanted to

Right. Enid Borden (02:39.03) There's some quotes that I like to talk about. says, philanthropy is more than giving. It's the art and the act of improving the world with purpose. Is it the thoughtful use of one's resources, money, time, influence or expertise to strengthen communities? We support shared values, we solve problems and we build a legacy. And this is exactly what you've done. This is what your life has done. This is your purpose. It's the legacy you leave. guess what I really want to talk about, as Mark talked about the corporate world and all that corporate stuff is great. That's terrific. But you've gone beyond that. You said, I'm going to change the world. And you have, can you tell us where, why this happened? Where did you come to realize, you know what? I can do good too. Tell me about that.

Well, first of all, thank you for all the kind words. It's a pretty high bar here. You know, it's interesting that you don't like the word charity. I don't like it either. And I don't like the word philanthropy either. I'll tell you why don't like that word. Because in working with young people, a lot of young people think, philanthropy, that's a rich person's thing. And Right at the end of your introduction, Eden, you use the words do good. And so that's, that's, that's, think the best way to put it. Gosh, the, the, guess my philanthropic journey, if you will, started with my grandfather's funeral. My grandfather died when I was 13. We belonged to a synagogue that his father helped found. you know, over a hundred years ago in the middle of Washington, DC, synagogue is called Addis Israel. And the service was at Addis Israel. And then there was this funeral procession to the cemetery and the cemetery was in a part of Washington known as Anacostia. That's where the cemetery was. And it was the middle of the weekday and I'm in the car heading to the cemetery and I'm driving through Anacostia, a place I had never been before, a place that had become you know, a place of low income housing, federal housing projects and high crime, all kinds of problems. I was a little bit aware of, guess, at the time. And what struck me as we drove through on the way to the cemetery was how many people my age were sort of out and not in school. I was like, this, didn't make sense to me. And it, it really, it just. I don't know, it just didn't make sense. It stuck with me. Okay, now fast forward. I think that planted a seed. It wasn't a seed that was planted by my parents. My dad worked long hours as a clerk at a store. My mom worked part time and was a housewife the rest of the time. So there was really, I think, no time in their life for doing anything other than trying to raise their children. And my father, you know,

give us a decent home to live in. So fast forward to fairly early on in my business career where I had some really good fortune in my business and almost felt guilty about how well we were doing. I was a pretty young guy and the business was very successful. And so I was in search of ways to give back. And I happened to be watching 60 minutes one evening. This is I'm going to say 1980, maybe 1981, something like that. And they were interviewing a guy named Eugene Lang. Eugene Lang was a successful business guy in New York City who started a program in Harlem called I Have a Dream. And he basically walked into a middle school and said, if you get kids can get into college, I'll pay for your tuition. And that that was sort of the basis of it. And I was intrigued. I was intrigued by him. I went and met with him. And he told me there's a lot more to it than that. But it was interesting. And I said, I'd like to try bringing that to Washington. And specifically walking into a middle school in Anacostia. It happened to be on on a street called Bruce Place, which I didn't, but it was called Johnson Middle School, and sort of

Thank

We so we launched that program, my partner and I in in Washington. The idea being not only that we would write checks, but that we really get deeply involved in 60 students lives who were in sixth grade at the time. And we try to provide them sort of resources that they might not otherwise have available to them. Tutoring, mentoring, field trips out outside of Anacostia. And through all that, try to get them to be the best version of themselves as they move through middle school and high school. The high school that they went to at that point had an absentee rate of about 40%. So that meant, you know, two out of five days a week, you weren't in school on average. So that that's kind of where it all started. Enid Borden (08:19.542) It's amazing. mean, it's a remarkable thing, but then you went even further than that. And we talked about doing good. There's a thing called the good challenge. I want to talk a little bit about that. You began something at the University of Maryland called the Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Management at the University of Maryland, which I am in love with. It's something that I would, that's my dream. I was actually at my own alma mater in upstate New York in one of the poorest counties in the state of New York. And I said, this is what we hear. This is what we need to do here. Unfortunately, I don't have the resources to do that thing. But we can, in fact, take little bits and pieces of your idea and maybe spread that. Can you tell us a little bit more about the center and the do good challenge? Let's talk about doing good. We can do good and do well, can't we?

Yeah. so this is really, I think other than, you know, I'm really proud of the family that my wife and I have raised, but other than that, this may be the thing I'm most excited about. If you don't mind, again, I'd like to go back in time to give you the genesis of it, by the way, that long winded name, the center for non-private from the, okay, remember that had the word philanthropy and I don't like that word. So we very quickly, we very quickly changed the name of the It would change the name of it to the do good Institute and and it's at the University of Maryland. And if you come onto the campus, there's now a building and in front of that building, there's one of those huge kind of like the love sign. You can picture that big three dimensional love sign. There's a huge sign that just says do good. And now whenever kids come onto campus that graduate, everybody takes their picture in front of the do good sign. Enid Borden (09:37.624) Okay.

When you're a high school junior or senior and you go on the high school tour of the University of Maryland, the tour starts at that sign. So the university has really embraced this idea. But let me go back and then we can get to where it is now, which is pretty extraordinary. That philanthropic journey continued beyond those early years with the I Have a Dream initiative. And over the years, Two things were happening. One, I was becoming increasingly frustrated with nonprofits, often led by these wonderful Mother Teresa types who had huge hearts and, you know, anything and everything they can to improve outcomes, whether they were shelters for battered women or... educational outcomes, whatever it was, but often, often they lacked all the tools they needed to be as successful as they could possibly be. So they would often struggle with fundraising. They would struggle with running a company because a nonprofit's a company and, know, voting people, giving people feedback, all the sort of business instincts that I think you need to be successful in running a nonprofit. I served on boards and it was just kind of, it was frustrating. It really was. So that was That was there at the same time my wife got involved in an after school program. And it was a really interesting program. It was called JIPPY Jewish Youth Philanthropy. It had that word in it and it was for high school juniors and seniors. And what it would do is it would teach them how to engage in informed giving. So they would. They were Jewish students. They would all each put up a little bit of their bar mitzvah money. And then there was a matching amount of money. So there would be this pool. There'd be like 30 students. And there would be $10,000 that they would have to give away. And they'd have to figure out how to do that impactfully. So they would go through a process. They would meet every Sunday in the winter for about 10, 12 weeks, I think it was.

They would learn how to write an RFP. They would learn how to evaluate the balance sheet of a nonprofit. They would learn what to do when they go on site visits. And they would have to go on site visits in the community to the various nonprofits. They would first have to decide together collectively, what would be the focus? Would it be curing cancer? Would it be a homeless shelter? And they would send out proposals. would get sometimes as many as 10 proposals back and they have to evaluate them. Ultimately, they'd have to as a group agree on who to give the $10,000 to. The kids at first didn't really want to do this. Their parents made them do it because they thought it would look good on the college applications as an outside activity. By the end, the kids were in love with this program, in love. And the final meeting would be a meeting in our house where the

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Students would come, their parents would come, their parents would be so proud of the students. The students would have grown through this process. They would explain the process. The parents and the nonprofit would be there. They would hand them the check. It was a beautiful, really beautiful. And I would watch how this really ignited, excited the kids. Over the years, that really set in, Aaron and I, my wife and I started talking about, gosh, can we take something like this to a university? She went to University of Maryland. I went to Washington University in St. Louis. We took it to both universities and through some weird circumstances, we never really launched it at Washington University. We go to University of Maryland with the idea of, is there something, is there a way we can start this? Is there like a 101 class that we could that we could back that we that we sort of teach all the stuff that Karen was teaching, maybe also inspire kids by doing case studies of Oprah Winfrey, Ben Franklin, other people who have really done done good. And then there'd be this lab component where they would give away ten thousand dollars, much as it was in Karen's. We go to the university with that idea. They immediately marches into the president of university's office. And he's saying, OK, so you want to teach our students to become more generous. I'm all in. And he became a great partner. We launched that first class in 2011. And it was an enormous success. Enormous word of mouth. It was probably an easy A, too. I don't know.

Thank Bruce (15:20.7) There was huge demand, huge, huge demand. So we were fortunate that the guy we hired to run that class was really, really special. He had come out of a program at Indiana University. And they have always had this sort of philanthropic bent. And I think he saw an opportunity to really build something much bigger at Maryland. Enid Borden (15:44.622) rest.

even bigger than what they had done at Indiana. So he became a partner with us in building this out. In the second year, he said, you know, we have these classes now, they're very popular. I want to do something on campus. We'll call it the Do Good Challenge. And I was like, okay, what does that mean? well, we'll create this challenge where Students who are launching nonprofits or reimagining nonprofits, we have a bunch of them on campus. We have all kinds of small and large initiatives. We'll do something like that and we'll have a competition. And I said, okay, I don't know if that's gonna work or not. It required us again, putting up some additional funds for that. But we went along with it. It was an instant huge success, huge success. The first year, 3,000 students, participated in the good challenge fraternities, can have fraternities and sororities got involved. The lacrosse team, you know, got involved. We had this session that was, you know, which that show with Mark Cuban and all those people on TV. Shark Tank. So we kind of structured the challenge like that. They had to get up and make a pitch and

Wow.

Shark Tank.

You know, there were prizes for the best pictures and all that. And it just took off. The first year, this young man from Silver Spring, Maryland, had started going around to the cafeterias at the end of the day and collecting leftover food and taking it to homeless shelters. And he came on, he said, I need a refrigerator truck. to do this better. And so he was one of the winners. That program that he started at Maryland is now on over 200 campuses in the United States. Really extraordinary. So that's to do a good challenge. And that really kick started between the courses and the challenge and sort of sort of spread through the campus. it was really kind of cool. In 2000, I think it was 17, the secretary general of the United Nations came to Maryland to speak. And he had heard about how it had progressed to that point. And in his speech, you know, to this huge crowd of people at the University of Maryland, he said, yours is the first to do good campus in the world. And you will become

Wow.

the do good generation. was really, really, really inspirational. And again, it was creating all this momentum so that there has been this rise of the do good campus at the University of Maryland. Now it is, it is so central to the ethos of the university. In this semester, just, just ending over 10,000 students took courses or were involved in various programs that were that were directed by the do good Institute and we now have sort of do good operatives in each college at the university from the engineering school to the athletic department to the school of education. So it's it's just been I know I'm giving you a very long winded answer but again it I could give you a hundred stories. It's just been a spectacular thing to watch and you think about Sorry, I'm rambling a little bit, but you think about we're catching those students, you know, they're coming in there. 18 years old. Think about what we were when we were 18 years old. We certainly weren't as community service minded as 18 year olds are today. We really weren't. But that seed was planted in a lot of these kids in high school when they had to do community service credits and things like that. And they come in and they're they have that wonderful.

It's OK.

So.

naivety that they can change the world. mean, they do have that mindset. And this gives them a grounding, a place to begin to do that. Enid Borden (20:18.371) We can't. Enid Borden (20:24.174) we've got to do is spread this to other college campuses. Mark and I talk about it all the time. Mark, your whole philosophy about children, about kids, about getting them at an early age, 18 is a good age to get them at. Talk a little bit about, Mark, how you're feeling about when we're smart and we're young, we're dumb when we're young, we're smart anyway, and how we really ought to take this whole notion of doing good and spreading it throughout the country, not just in Maryland. How do we do that, Mark?

Well, you know, actually, I'm going to let Bruce actually answer that particular question. But I do want to I do want to just move the conversation just a bit to something that we the whole purpose of this podcast. the whole purpose of this podcast was to was to, as we often say in beginning, to find meaning and purpose and at the same time manage or even crush your anxiety. because of the way the viewpoint, the perspective that that we call or I call the aerial view. So Bruce, let me ask you a question. You've had a lot of success in your life. You had a lot of business success. You had fulfilled that childhood dream of yours of owning a basketball and a thrown in hockey team. I know it was the basketball team. Right. Well, I know that because we used to play basketball together, if you remember. And I watched you play and and that wasn't going to happen. Yeah. Yeah.

No, the dream was to play. that, at 5'8", when I peeked out at 5'8", that was it. Go ahead. Enid Borden (21:34.19) you

Yeah, Bruce and I did play basketball together for a number of years and I can tell you that it wasn't gonna happen. For either one of us, but it's just the way it is. But I look at all the things you've done in your life and what is it about this giving, this doing good that clearly, I'm gonna guess that of all the things you've done, other than your children and grandchildren, this is probably the thing that makes you most fulfilled.

Thank you,

most proud and gives you the most meaning. Is that accurate? Why do you think that is?

Yes. That's good question, Mark. He always asks me good questions. We have lunch together from time to time. Well, let me think about it. So, selfishly,

Well, I love the idea of trying to think that I'm still young. And so this thing, you when I saw these young kids that Karen was working with, it just really, it felt wonderful. And University of Maryland has been very smart in the way it's engaged us and enabled us to show up on campus and do everything from getting funny students and speak to them about the head and the heart and how that intersects and trying to be a wise steward of your time and money. But it also gets us to go to the vegetable garden at the University of Maryland and pick vegetables with the baseball team and talk to these 19 year old baseball players who are having a ball picking snow peas out of the garden. So, I mean, it's kind of a selfish thing. just, I'm not sure that's the whole answer. I also think, you know, there is some guilt. There's some guilt about how fortunate I've been, how lucky I've been, and, you know, sort of this, you know, pressure to give back. You know, there was a time when, you know, my parents were aware of some of the things I was doing and It made them feel really good and I like making them feel really good. I want to do a deeper thought on that, but those are some of the

You you answered, I think, I think you said something right in beginning, you probably didn't notice you said you talking about Karen in the school and you said, it made me feel wonderful. So, you know, that's to me, you know, all these other things you talk about, but you feel wonderful. Forget the guilt. mean, I don't think you know, I know you a long time. I'm proud of you. And I'm not your father. But I think of all the things you've done, I go, you you have you have

Mm-hmm.

God. Uh-huh.

Among all the people I know, have really, you you don't just talk to talk, you've walked the walk and continue to do so. getting back to a central theme for me is that it made you feel wonderful. you've, you know, that is such an important, it's such a simple thing you say, but I really do believe that when you, that you're, doing this giving, this doing good on a huge scale that most of us. will never get close to. And it's not just because you had the financial ability to do it. You also had to put in a lot of time and effort. So it wasn't like all of a sudden you just clicked on your bank account and everything happened. You and Karen put in a tremendous amount of effort.

Thank you.

Yep.

But the reward you get is that feeling wonderful. what we talk about a lot on this podcast is that, I always like to say, if you're in a bad mood or something's going wrong or you have trouble in your life, go help someone else. Because that will instantaneously make you feel better. It's this little magic trick. And I think it's woven into the fabric of who we are and part of our mission. And we talk about on this show that our mission is to evolve from selfish to selfless, from inward focus to outward focus. Why?

Mm. No.

That is what we're inclined to do. That is, I believe, why we're here, to make that evolution. And I think that the things that you do on a massive scale that people listening to this are going, well, I'm never going to be able to do that. It doesn't matter. You can do it on an individual scale. You help one person. We know in the famous biblical saying, to save one life is to save the world.

Yeah, yeah.

I think that's the message that as much as you feel great and wonderful for doing this tremendous amount of, to have 10,000 students involved, mean, what you've done is, I've told you this personally, that it's just remarkable. It's just incredibly remarkable. But you don't have to have those resources to do it on a one-on-one level.

No, no. I mean, I told you about the young man. If he was eating lunch with us at Brooklyn deli and and you didn't finish the other half of your sandwich and you weren't taking it home, he would take it and he would get it would find its way to a homeless shelter that evening. I mean, that he was a freshman. He was a freshman in college. mean, that Mark, you said something that triggered back to your earlier question. Another piece of this for me. And that is that whatever I I've managed to have success in, whether it was the sports teams, my business, raising my family, I've always done in partnership with somebody. And this I've done in partnership with Karen and with those other people at the University of Maryland, whether they be the president or the guy who's still running the Do Good Institute, who started with that first class. That's another part of what I love. love, you know, first of I love to work. I do. just, I like to get up in the morning and go to work and being able to go to work on stuff like this and being able to do it in partnership with other people. It is really cool. It's really cool. I give you a neat example. I think this is a neat example. So 10 years ago, I was, I was in Jerusalem and we were with some people. And we were staying at a hotel and one of the people said, have you ever heard of the Jerusalem Youth Chorus? And I said, no. I said, what is that? They go, well, it's a coexistence program where Palestinians, student young people and Jewish young people make beautiful music together. It's an acapella group. I said, wow, that's really interesting. They said, the reason I'm asking you is because they're rehearsing right across the street. And if you want, at eight o'clock, we can go over and listen to them rehearse. So I said, great, Karen and I go over there. It is exactly what it sounds like. It's these young people. It was started by a young man from Bethesda, Maryland, who goes to Yale University and joins the Wiffenpoofs, which is apparently a famous a cappella group at Yale University and decides, I'm going to go to Israel and do this. And he had just started it a year or so before. Anyway, so.

This seemed like something worth supporting over the years. We supported you some youth course, just mostly not so much with our time because you're right. I love getting involved getting my hands dirty, but this was more just sort of supporting them with our money and maybe a little advice here and there. Fast forward to November of.

the the election November, I'm losing track of time, it's, yeah, 2024. In that month, the Jerusalem Youth Course had been approved by USAID for a grant, a significant grant. And they began doing things that they had dreamed of doing in terms of expanding, being able to reach out to the world, being able to say, look at us, go on tours around the world, you know, with their message, all that kind of stuff.

2024.

In February of 2025, Trump wins the election and in 22 months later, he cancels all grants, including that grant. They're now in a pickle because they've already hired some people and they got to raise money. So that kind of got me excited. And next month, they're coming to Southern Florida and they're doing six concerts in Southern. which will be fundraisers and friendraisers for this Jerusalem Youth Chorus. And again, Karen and I were able to work with another couple down here. The guy does music appreciation courses at these communities that they have in Florida where us old people live. And there are a bunch of them and they're big communities, hundreds and hundreds of homes. And he goes in.

the

Just like a comedian or some other performer would go, he goes and does these amazing music appreciate. So he's a bit of a, a celebrity down here. So he was able to call our community, five other communities and say, we want to do this. They said, sounds great. So boom, we're going to do that. We're going to, we're going to raise a lot of money for them. And also a lot of awareness and a lot of head scratching because people are going to see these young people. up there singing beautiful music. You're not gonna know who's Palestinian. They all speak Hebrew, English, and Arabic. You're not gonna know who's who, what's what. You're gonna hear their stories. It's not just a concert. There's also a conversation that goes on in the middle of the concert, so they'll hear these stories. I don't know how I got off on that tangent, but that's the kind, I mean, come on. Who wouldn't wanna be involved in something like that?

Right. And the reason you want to be involved is because it makes you feel great. mean, it's nothing, nothing like helping other people. You know, like I said, you do this on this grand scale, which I, I don't want to embarrass you and say it again, how fantastic, but,

Wonderful.

Yeah, yeah.

The message that there are two messages that I see in what you just said. The first, of course, is the doing good and helping people. And you don't have to be fabulously wealthy or famous or powerful. You can help somebody next door, anything. The second part of that you mentioned is the group interaction, the relationships. And the solution to so many of our problems in this world is to be together. you mentioned your grandfather's funeral was in Anacostia. You grew up in DC.

No. No.

You grew up in a racially mixed area. DC is a racially mixed area. Obviously, when I got here, it was still called the Chocolate City. It was 80 % Black, 20 % White. Now I think about half and half. As you know, you've been in my office. I would say 80 % of my employees were Black and maybe half my patients, maybe more. Something like that, maybe half my patients. So for me, and when you grow up in a situation that you no longer see people

Yes, yes, yes.

in that way. Just like you don't see the Palestinians and the Jews and of course, you don't see people that way. They're just people. You just recognize their face and you say good morning and you know each other's families, you know each other's kids, and you know when somebody's sick and when somebody's got a problem. And then you don't see that stuff. And that's the problem we have in our society today, more than anything, is this divisiveness. Bruce hears me go on and on about how much I hate this divisiveness because it's the worst thing ever. And we need to get to

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

open our minds and our hearts to people who might disagree with us, see things differently, because when you do that, you end up with the Palestine, with the Jerusalem chorus. You end up with a group of people who just don't see each other that way anymore, and they're just friends, and they just care for each other and listen to each other. you know, this whole idea of, you know, this doing good is, it's the combination of helping people for, because it makes you feel good, it also, by the way, crushes your anxiety.

Yes.

It is very difficult to access.

It does. Mark, I hope you heard in my voice when I was talking about whether it was about to do good into the Jerusalem youth course. My heart starts racing in the best possible way. I really get it. It's great to be excited. It's like, you know, cheering at a football game or something. I mean, it's such a great, great feeling. It really is. And you can still hear me.

I'll tell you something. Yeah, I'll tell you something just saying so my wife, Tineen, I don't think I don't know if you've ever met maybe a minute or once but anyway, yes. So her mother, her mother was very religious Christian and

I met her once.

She used to say, if you ask for something, watch out, because God's likely to give it to you in spades. So one day I was talking to Deneen, it was a long time ago, and I said, you know, it's funny, just, you know, being a doctor is great. I just love helping people. I'd love to help as many people as I can. And she turned to me, goes, okay, be careful, because that's what you're going to get in spades, right? She's laughing, right? Well,

Yeah

I have said over the years that I must have a little sign on my forehead that says, ask me for help. And I don't mean financial help. mean, talk to me, share things with me. Rather than saying, God, why did I ever ask that? I'm thinking, thank God I did because the joy that I've had, being a doctor primarily, but also outside of medicine, it's just been such a tremendous source of joy for me. It's the giving. The giving doesn't have to be in terms of dollars or it's just, it's opening your heart. and being willing to give yourself to somebody else and then this magic trick happens and you end up feeling 10 times better than the person you helped. And I think that's what you're talking about in these endeavors that you and Karen especially have undertaken over the years. Enid Borden (35:57.454) Well, mean, as Arbiter World is, I've got to say we're running out of time and I don't want to cut anybody short, but all right, then let's keep going.

Well, in.

I think we can go a little further. It's okay. Let's keep going.

Okay, if we can go further, just want to, just want to just. Enid Borden (36:09.646) I'm gonna say thing to you, because you squabbled with me. But I gotta say this, you're right. When we're feeding someone in my world, it doesn't matter what color they are, it doesn't matter what sex they are, it doesn't matter anything. What matters most is that we as human beings can help other people. This is the lesson that you have taught us. And that lesson is, fine, you happen to have a lot of money, good for you, God bless you. But there are people who don't have a lot of money, but are doing great things.

Let Bruce, Bruce wants to say, Bruce, hang on a second.

Right. That's right. Enid Borden (36:39.168) and you're recognizable too. And I just want to thank you. I didn't want to lose that thought before we go any further. I just want you to know that those of us who work and toil in the nonprofit world could not do what we do without people like you. Now I'll let you talk. Bruce (36:54.5) Well, I appreciate that. I was just going to butt in when Mark was talking because he's a big problem for me. He asks really probing questions. really, really, challenges me. We not only get together for lunch, we exchange emails pretty frequently where he'll send me down rabbit holes. that have really broadened my horizons, the way I think of things. We just want to do something where pessimists, optimists, realists, trying to get my hands around all that. I've always thought of myself as an optimist. I remember reading years ago that optimists live longer, and that sounds like a good idea to me.

you

But then, you know, then people throw cold water on that when they say things like, well, you know, the pessimist, the pessimist among your Jewish relatives in the 1930s in Germany, fled Germany. The optimists ended up in Auschwitz. so, you know, that, you know, it really, Mark, you and I started talking about this stuff and it's really, led me down this rabbit hole of where do I want to be kind of where's my psyche. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that from the aerial view.

Well, yeah, I will tell you. I wouldn't confuse optimists and stupidity. So they are different, right? You can be an optimist in terms of understanding. we're here for a limited time, right? We're for, and it's only two options. We're either here for a purpose or we're not, right? It's binary. So if you believe we're not here for a purpose, well, good luck.

Okay.

You know, you're going to have a rough time. And I think, as you've heard me say, and Eden's had me say a million times, I think the clues in the world point to the fact that there is a purpose. And the number one clue is what we're talking about today, is that you get, all of us get a limitless joy. when we help and assist other people. That tells you that helping and assisting other people, that turning the camera from yourself, the selfie generation we're in now, outward to what you're doing and what Enid has done her entire life also. We know it's right because that's what makes you the happiest. Nothing makes you happier than the things that you two guys do all the time. So being an optimist is to say, OK, I know I am here. I have a purpose. It's gonna work out one way or the other. I know I'm not gonna live forever. It doesn't matter how great a guy I am or how much money I make or how much powerful I get. I'm gone one day. It's over. I'm on that last record of what I refer to as the jukebox of time. So longevity cannot be the goal. It ends and there's no such thing as winning the game. Okay, why are you here? To do good, exactly what your institute is named. To do good, to help other people, to make that evolution from selfish to selfless.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

from inward focus to outward focus. But, and so you should be an optimist because you know what your goal is, you know what you're supposed to do, you know what the mission is. Now, it doesn't mean you don't ignore, it doesn't mean you should ignore the reality on the ground. If it looks like somebody is gonna come over and chop your head off, it's a good idea to get in your car and drive away, right? So they're not the same thing. You can be a pessimist and saying, if I stay here, you know, it's not a pessimist saying if I stay here, bad things are gonna happen.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

You can still be the artist, but you're still living in the street view, or what I call the street view. Stuff happens in the street view. You have to your head on a swivel, right? You have to be paying attention.

Okay, okay, so, you know, we're not gonna have time today, but we will find time to continue this conversation because, you know, trying to put myself in 1935 Germany, who I am today. people would be saying, this too shall pass. People would be saying, he's gonna get voted out of office in the next election. And the office Miss and me is gonna go to work on trying to get him voted out of office in the next election. And I think I would have ended up in Auschwitz. I think I would have. And I could have been 30 years old and I don't think that would have been a good thing. So anyway, we don't have time.

Well, you're right. We can pick. Would you come back again, Bruce? Will you come back again and do this again with us?

I have to lay on the couch when I'm doing it though.

Okay, I think that was a knowing it. What do you think? Enid Borden (41:37.398) You Enid Borden (41:41.198) No, but let me end with something that I found. It was written by a reporter many, many years ago. was an anti-segregation reporter. He did some great pieces. And he wrote something that I think is reflective of you, He said, never respect a man merely for his riches, but rather for his philanthropy. We do not value the sun for its height, but for its use. Thank you for what you do. Thank you for who you are. Thank you for being on this show and keep up the good work because without you, our country gets worse and worse. Mark, I'll give you the final word, but I just needed to tell you that, Thank you. Thank you from the bottom of heart.

Thanks, you all have been so kind, really, really kind.

So my last word is I've, you know, I've known Bruce a long time. I've, you know, I've watched him. I said, this is gonna sound a little weird on a podcast, but you know, there was a pretty time that Bruce and I did not communicate for no good reason. It's just life happened. And every once in he would pop up into my dreams. I think I told you this, Bruce. And I think.

Yeah, you did.

What is Bruce Levinson doing in my dreams? I haven't seen him in like five years or whatever it was, right? So, you there are these connections, something else we talk about, I can't really explain them. I will say that I'm glad that you and I are connected again. I love our lunches. And I don't want to say I'm proud, but I'm honored to be your friend and to watch all the great things that you and Karen have done. And Enid is true, your effect on this earth is...

Get out. Get out.

considerable and will last for many, many years. So thanks again for being on. I'll see you at the lunch. Go ahead.

Ditto. Well, wait a minute. You know me. I have to have the last word, Mark. You know. So I will end the way the president of the University of Maryland has ended every year. And we've had two presidents. Every year they end the Do Good Challenge by thanking everyone for coming. And now go out and do good. Enid Borden (43:24.238) Here we go.

We will try every day. Thanks, Bruce. Thanks a million. Thank you, everybody, for listening. We'll see you next time. Enid Borden (43:40.75) Good. Amen. Thanks.

Be well.