Episode 53: Being together

Welcome to wisdom from the area of view, a podcast for those who want to see how they can crush their anxiety, relieve some stress in their life and just make life better. So good morning, Dr. Klein, how are you today?

Good evening, how are you?

I'm all right. You sent me an email saying that you wanted to talk about what happens when a group is told to do something that doesn't fit the narrative of what they expect. So, and one of the things you talking about was COVID. So let's talk about that. So what happens if we're asked to do something that doesn't fit a narrative? Go ahead, tell me what you meant by this.

So COVID's a good example because we noticed during COVID people got very angry. What did they get angry about? They weren't getting angry that they were getting sick. They were getting angry that the government was not allowing them to go to work, not allowing to open businesses, or rather they were allowing certain businesses to open, like some of the big box stores or Amazon. They weren't allowing the mom and pop stores. We all saw these stories about small restaurants or bars where they were not allowed to open and that people were losing their business or... gyms, things like that. People were very upset. And then they were told what they could do and what they couldn't do. They couldn't go to a synagogue or church or the mosque. They couldn't go to the religious institutions. And then they said, some people, if you didn't get a vaccine, you were going to lose your job. In fact, that happened to a lot of people in public service. But all these things made people extremely angry. And then you have to say, why did they get so angry? Why were they worried so much more about this than their health or the health of their loved ones? I'm sure they were worried about that, but they got very angry about this. And when you think about when you see something like this happen, we know from our interview with Dr. Langre how she so eloquently said, people always do things for a reason. And when you see a certain behavior, there's always a reason for it. And I think the reason for this, for that incredible anger around the country,

was that the narrative of America is that this is a free country. In fact, when we were kids, we were always saying, you can't tell me what to do. It's a free country, right? We always said that. And people do think it's a free country, and they should have the right to make most choices. Obviously, you can't run through a red light, and you can't go into a bank and take all their money, things like that. There are rules, but basically, you can say what you want, pretty much.

Right, that's right. Yeah, yeah.

and you can live your life unimpeded by many governmental rules. Certainly whether or not you can go to a religious house of worship or whether or not you can open your store and serve the public and so on. So people, I think what happened here were people got very upset because the American narrative was being undermined or certainly what they were being told by the leaders of the country or their communities was ran contrary to what they assumed the narrative of their lives, meaning the American life was. And this is a very, very interesting problem to look at because it's an example of how as individuals and as communities we need to make sure that we're always paying attention to what people expect and what people believe. Anytime you go against that you're in trouble and we see that a lot in conspiracy theories. It's the same basic idea. This is very important because one of the goals of this podcast, and you and I in our lives, we'd like to see a more congenial society. We want to see less angst, less individual angst, and also less disharmony in our communities. And certainly this period now where we have the great divisiveness in our country and certainly what we saw in the COVID is really a manifestation of this exact problem. So I thought it was worth giving it a shot and talking about it. Or can talk about football, whatever you want.

No, that's fine. I agree with you to a point. I do think that in many respects, we're going through a period now, it's certainly, I haven't seen it in my lifetime and yours either, where people are afraid to say things because something bad will happen to them. And I think that's basically, everything's topsy turvy now. I know that during COVID we were We were afraid, we were scared, we didn't know if we were going to live or die or whatever and if the government told us to stand six feet apart, we stood six feet apart. They told us to stay in our houses and we did. Was that the wrong thing to do?

Well, I wouldn't say it was the wrong thing to do because I'm going to assume that the intention of our leaders, both the medical leaders and the political leaders, was to do what they thought was in the best interest of the population of Americans. You know me, I tend to judge people favorably. I don't think they were out to, in some sinister manner, make our lives miserable. think they were trying to do the best they could. And remember, when you have something like this, pandemic with a new infectious entity, nobody knows anything, right? They're shooting from the hip right from the start. It takes a long time to collect the data and analyze it. I see one of the benefits of AI will be going forward, that the time span for these kinds of things will be much, much, much quicker.

Sure, sure.

Here we were in 2020, five years ago, now almost six years ago, that we didn't have this information and they were doing the best they can. But with the mistake they made, and unintentionally again, I'm assuming they had the best intentions. I'm gonna give them all a pass. From Tony Fauci on. There are people who don't like some of these people who are very upset with them, but I tend to give these people a pass. I know they've spent their lives, especially the people on the public health side, spent their lives trying to help people here in the US and the world. And I know they were trying to do the right thing. And maybe it didn't work out as well as people thought. And maybe they did some things that were upsetting, but overall I give them, I believe they were trying to do the right thing. But here is the mistake they made. The mistake they made was they flew in the face of the existing American narrative. And I'm gonna tell you why I think this is so important and why this is gonna be so helpful for all of us in terms of how we conduct our lives and our interpersonal relationships. This is why I wanted to talk about this. It's really cool. You can learn a lot from this. think not only as a society, but as individuals. imagine this. Imagine instead of saying, if you don't get COVID vaccination, you can't have your job. Now I ran a medical practice, right? I had 60 employees in my particular office and I encouraged them all to get vaccinated. In fact, I will tell you that I was actually one of the first people in the country vaccinated. was quite serendipitous. didn't plan it. In fact, I tried to tell the hospital with which I was affiliated, even though that, don't put me on the early list. I'm not seeing patients in the hospital. You need to give this to the people that work in the hospital, the nurses, the techs, et cetera, et cetera. Don't give it to me. And they said, no, no, no. It's all part of the plan. We want to give it to you. Because I was older, I guess. Anyway, so I tried to talk my way out of getting the initial vaccine, thinking I was trying to be a good guy. anyway, it turns out I was one of the, in that early

before, think it was before Christmas, certainly before New Year's in 2020, the miracle of that vaccine. Okay, so I took it and then I tried to, I urged my staff to all get vaccinated. So why did I urge my staff to get vaccinated? Well, the existing information at that time, which I think was accurate, was that if you got vaccinated, the chance of having a serious case of COVID was dramatically decreased. Your chance of death was dramatically decreased. Your chance of being hospitalized and in the ICU was dramatically decreased. It didn't mean you weren't going to get COVID, although at that time we thought it did mean you weren't going to get COVID. Turned that not to be accurate, but it is accurate that your chance of death and serious illness was markedly decreased. So I urged my staff, all 60 of them, to get vaccinated. Now I will tell you there was a subgroup that didn't want to get vaccinated. And what was interesting about this subgroup was that they were all the same minority. And I think part of it was like they didn't trust, they didn't trust the government, to tell you the truth. But they trusted me, right? I think I've told you this, I've told all listeners, I have an extremely close relationship with the people with whom I worked all those years. were very close, really very much like a family. And they knew that I had their best interest at heart. I wasn't going to tell them to do something for any other reason other than I really thought this is their best interest. In fact, one of the women said to me, OK, I'm going to get vaccinated. I don't really want to. But if something happens to me, you have to take care of my son. At that point, was like 12 or something like that. And I laughed. I said, the reason I want you to do this so that you can take care of your son, right? I don't want anything to happen to you. All right, so.

Sounds fair, yeah.

So there is a subset of people that did not want to get vaccinated, did not trust the government, and they had their reasons. I understood them. They only didn't have the same reason, but there were very reasons. But here's the problem that we ran into. We then said, what I never said to my staff was, if you don't get vaccinated, you can't work here. Although at that time, we had recently become part of a larger company, and their attitude was initially, if you don't get vaccinated, you can't work. And I knew that was wrong. But some government agencies, military, police, firefighters, a lot of those people lost their jobs because they refused to get vaccinated. Which turned out that the people who refused to get vaccinated turned out to be right and the government turned out to be wrong. But nobody knew that at the point, Meaning that by not getting vaccinated, they weren't increasing the likelihood of patients or other people getting vaccinated as long as those other people were vaccinated. So in other words, if a tech or a nurse isn't vaccinated and takes care of me, but I'm vaccinated at that point, it's okay, right? We didn't know that then. Again, judging everybody favorably. But here was the problem. We rammed it down people's throat. We said, if you don't do this, you're going to lose your job. If you don't do this, you can't attend public functions. We said to... people and as I said in businesses, if you don't do this. You know, you can't open it all. Even if you do do this, you can't open it all. We did a lot of things that flew in the face of the American narrative of it's a free country. You government doesn't tell us what to do by and large. Now, I know we're going to get a lot of people saying, well, we have all these rules about abortion and this and that. And the other thing I get it. But generally speaking, the American narrative is it's a free country. You get to do pretty much what you want as long as you don't hurt anybody else. And this flew in the face of that. This is completely contrary to that.

And that riled up a lot of people, understandably. Imagine this, imagine if the public health people had said the following. The first thing they would say is, This is a free country, America's free country, and you get to choose what you want to do for the health and welfare of you and your family. It's in your hands. You get to choose. We're going to tell you the information we have now. We're going to show you the data and we're going to try and explain it in simple English. But at the end, you get to make the choice. And then they show the charts of the likelihood of dying from or getting seriously ill from COVID with and without a vaccine and so on and so forth. They presented this data in a very clear manner and said, so our recommendation to you is to get vaccinated. It'll keep you and your loved ones from getting seriously ill and avoiding the ultimate outcome, worst outcome of death. But remember, it's up to you. So you start with, it's up to you. In the middle, you say it's up to you. At the end, you say it's up to you. And then you give them the facts. That is the American narrative. I get to choose. And I will tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, I'm sure not everybody would have gotten vaccinated. But a whole lot more people would have because we gave them the choice. Once you take that choice away, then they think, OK, what's the government up to? That's when the conspiracy theories start. Aha. They're trying to take over the country. They're trying to do this, that, or the other thing that must be their reason. Otherwise, why would they take our rights away from us? Because that's how they saw it. were getting their American rights taken away. So how you present something is extremely important. And the point of how you present something is that it must be in keeping with the existing narrative of the person or group with whom you speak.

So if you want to convince a group to do something or urge them to do something or encourage them to do something, soon as you say, if you don't do this, then you can't do X, Y and Z, you're toast. The conversation is over. If on the other hand, you say we recognize your rights as an American to make these decisions, but here's what we think, here it's the data and here are our recommendations and you still remember, you still get to make the choice. That's a different point.

You and I disagree on this one. I still think that, let's just say we're gonna disagree, but I wanted to talk a little bit about comfort zones. Why comfort zone? Because I think maybe it's indicative of what you're saying about the American narrative, but it's also what makes me comfortable, what I am comfortable doing. If I am not comfortable with you directing me that I can't go into my place of worship, You've taken me out of my comfort zone. I am comfortable going into my church. I am comfortable every Sunday going to church. I am comfortable every Saturday going to synagogue. So you've taken me out of that. That's the American narrative or I call it comfort zone. And I do think that the government can be intrusive. And I think sometimes the government ought to be intrusive. It ought to be more intrusive on gun control, but that's a whole another episode that we ought to have because we can't. keep going on the way we're going. I brought up to you before an article that I read written by a man who used to be the governor of the state of Indiana. They took him out of his comfort zone. He is a Republican and was asked to go to Harvard and do some things and he thought he was scared to death because his comfort zone was that I'm gonna go into this institution of higher learning with a bunch of liberals and they're gonna just. not understand me, we're not going to see eye to eye and it's going to be bad. And he wrote, as someone who believes that restoring our communities is among America's greatest challenges, my goal was to see if the foundation of an open-minded, problem-solving community still existed in a place far removed from my own cultural comfort zone. He goes on to say, it does. From Ivy League campuses to neighborhood associations, service clubs and faith-based groups, communities of all kinds can restore themselves. And why do I bring this up? Why does it have to do with what you're talking about? I think it does. I think that when we feel comfortable with even those who are giving us orders, directions or whatever, it's easier to accept. And that's why what you're saying about if they would have said it's your choice, maybe that would have been a better way of doing it.

And you're right, I think a lot of it has to do with presentation. We live in a world, I think, where we just don't communicate as well as we ought to. And I think that's maybe what happened during COVID, but to nobody's fault, nobody knew what to do. I I guess it was the great pandemic of 1919, but we didn't communicate as well as we should have. Is that maybe part of the issue? Markekleinmd (15:45.9) Yeah, I think it is. think what I'm trying to get to, it sort of dovetails with the governor of Indiana. If he had gone into Harvard and they would have said, look, you're wrong. You're a right-wing maniac or whatever, even though he wasn't. And in so many words, he felt like they weren't interested in hearing him. and he wasn't given an opportunity to speak and exchange ideas, then sure. And that's kind if you look at what happened in COVID in a sense, there's a little bit of that. In other words, whether or not, every time you try and talk about politics, I run away or chase you away because it's not about politics, it's about...

Right.

how we communicate with each other. when the government was very heavy handed, and of course, what else happened? We saw public officials kind of cheating, right? So they were telling us to do one thing and certain public officials were caught with their hands in the cookie jar, wherever they were at a restaurant, whatever. People looked at that and went, yeah, you're telling me what to do and you're not doing it? Okay, that's part of it. But again, you have to keep with...

And you're not doing it. Yeah. Yeah.

You have to keep with that comfort zone you're talking about is very similar to the narrative by which you live. That's really what it is. When you're in your comfort zone, it means that the outside world, as you see it, is in flux with the way it should be. It's all making sense. It's all going together. People are behaving the way you expect. Your community's acting the way you expect. Your family, whatever it is, everything's kind of, as my father used to say, copacetic. When you're out of your comfort zone, when all of a sudden you're seeing things that fly in the face of what you know and what you're used to and what you accept and and accept in a sense that expect and accept so that when that doesn't happen, all of a sudden your antenna go up and your resistance goes up and your force field goes up. So this is very important for how we communicate not only in the public sphere, like in COVID or pandemics or even in politics. It's also important how we deal with each other. So you know we've talked about judging each other favorably, meaning allowing, assuming the best of somebody. And if it turns out they're not what you expect, it's okay, because it's their problem, not your problem, according to Viktor Frankl, Viktor Frankl, you get to decide how you feel. Nobody else can determine how you feel. So what happened here, what happens here like in COVID, is exactly the opposite happens. somebody is telling you something that runs counter to what you would call your comfort zone, what I would say the existing narrative that you expect, what you think should be going on is totally contrary to that. so immediately you put up a resistance, you put up a force field. And then if somebody comes along and offers you another explanation for why they're doing this, you're going to buy into that or have a possibility to buy into it. Meaning when somebody comes across and says, it gives you a conspiracy theory about COVID or about why the government is restricting behavior, you're open to it because you've already seen that the government in this case has run afoul of your what you would call comfort zone, what I would call the existing American narrative that you're used to. And so when somebody else comes across as, yeah, they did do that. And here's why, you know, they're trying to take over the world. want to whatever it is, right. Then you're open to these crazy conspiracy theories because now you no longer trust the people who

with whom you're dealing because they run afoul of your comfort zone or your narrative. So this isn't only true in public health. This is true in every single interpersonal relationship, which is why I wanted to talk about it. So I'll you an example. And we'll get, I'm not gonna get into politics. I'm gonna talk about politics. So we have half the country believing one thing and half the country believing the other thing. And as long as both sides believe that the other side is a bunch of morons or worse, right? And they're not hearing them and not listening to them, this is never going to get better. So imagine instead a conversation between somebody from the left and somebody from the right, where they begin like this. I have certain feelings about the topic we're going to talk about, and I have strong feelings about it. And I'll explain to you why. But I also recognize you have strong feelings about this topic and you have reasons to feel this way. Pretty much what Ellen Langer was telling us during her excellent interview. There's a reason people have their feelings, right? They're not just crazy most of the time. They're not insane. They have a reason to believe it. So if you start a conversation with somebody with whom you disagree about a subject right off the bat and you recognize, A, there's a reason they believe it. It might be a reason you think is wrong or ill-informed or whatever. but they do have a reason, right? And you have to recognize that and say, recognize you have a reason for feeling this way and I don't understand it. And I have a reason I feel my way and maybe you don't understand it. So let's start out by saying, I recognize and accept that you have a legitimate reason for feeling the way you do. And I'd like you to believe that I have a legitimate reason if I do. Now let's talk about it. Okay. Boom, you haven't destroyed that person's comfort zone. Like you said, you haven't run afoul of the narrative that they have the right to believe what they want. You've accepted that they have the right to believe what they want. All of a sudden, there's at least a possibility of having a conversation. that's why when the governor of Indiana went to Harvard and found out, wow, these people were willing to listen to me, all of a sudden, he dropped his force field. He was open to learning. Whether or not he changed his mind about any topic, I have no idea. It doesn't really matter. It mattered that he came away with the fact that they

these are good people who really want to have a real conversation. And that's what we need. And that's how you do it. And that's why I wanted to talk about this idea of not running afoul of the narrative of the person with whom you're talking or the society and with whom you're dealing or your case, you know, not taking them forcefully out of their comfort zone.

But you mentioned a word and I think it's, we have to discuss this word when we're talking about this topic and that's the word trust. Who do I trust? I'm not getting into politics, you never want to, I always do. We talk about who do I, when the CDC is changing everything, when the FDA is changing everything, who do I trust? I have people telling me we used to be able to trust these numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, now we don't even get those numbers. Who do we trust anymore to put us in the place where we're comfortable or with the American narrative? You can't have a, I cannot be comfortable if I don't trust what you're telling me. How do we rectify that?

Well, both sides have to do that. All sides have to do that. And that's what I'm saying. You have to recognize the other side as a legitimate point of view. When's the last time you turned on either MS- and that's called MS Now, I think it was MS NBC, I they changed your name. If you had two TVs, right, let's say you two little TVs or two computers and you turn on MS Now on one side and you have Fox News on the other and you listen to the news and maybe 5 % is the same and 95 % is different, right? And you go, well, wait a minute, these people, both of these groups think they're right. They're so sure that they're seeing this the right way. So my reaction from the aerial view, and by the way, when you talk about like numbers from the Bureau of Labor's Discussion,

this morning, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

and so on, that is really, this is not a criticism. You have to recognize that is very street view stuff. You'll never resolve these issues at the street view. It won't work. have to, no, no, no, no, not you personally. but everybody has different facts about this, Enid. You gotta be really careful. You gotta be really careful about stuff like this. That's why, wait, wait, listen, that's why I say, if you have both TVs on, don't shoot the messenger here.

I'm not resolving an issue, I'm just, these are the facts. Those are facts. No, I understand that, but those numbers, those are just facts, but go ahead. okay.

No, this is not about TVs. No, I'm not shooting. No, no, no, I'm going to stay my peace, Facts are facts. You're going to refute facts. Okay, go ahead. Go ahead, it's your show. Go ahead, keep going. Well.

No, listen, listen, listen, listen. Go right ahead.

No, that's our show. No, people are gonna go, my God, you needed a marker having a spat.

We're not having a spat. We're not having a spat. I'm just telling it as it is. And that is you can't, if you want to pretend there's no hunger in America, just hide the numbers of those people who are going hungry. Okay. And that's what we're doing. But anyway, keep going.

Okay, here's my point. If you want to resolve these issues, I'm not taking a side. You know I don't take a side. What I'm saying is how do we resolve this conflict? How do we resolve these issues? If you were talking to somebody who is on the opposite side from you politically, and you started to have this argument about the facts and about the numbers, and I'm sure I can guarantee you they would have some... retort to you that would make some sense on some level because they believe it. So you have to say to yourself, okay, why do they believe this? Why do they believe something completely different than me? Now one of you might be right and one you might be wrong and most likely there's some truth and false interpretations on both sides. It's really pure. But still, why does that other person see this so differently than me? And if you want to bridge this gap, if you want to create a more harmonious society and a more harmonious life so that you don't get upset about these things, then you have to take it up a notch and you have to go into the aerial view and understand that there's a reason that everybody feels the way they do. That these are, most people are not psychotic. The first thing you have to do is say, okay, I recognize the fact. Instead of getting mad at them, the way to move forward is to say, look, I'm puzzled. I'm puzzled because... You seem like a really good person and you seem like a smart person and you clearly are a caring person. So, but you see this so differently than me. I need to understand why you see this so differently for me. I'm not going to judge you. really want to learn from you. And, you know, hopefully at some point you'll feel like you want to hear what I have to say and I love you. until you say to that person, I recognize that you have a legitimate opinion. You have it for a reason, which is what Dr. Ellen Langer was telling us. Everybody acts for a reason. Until you realize you're acting for a reason that's legitimate to them.

you'll never get anywhere. We will keep having these arguments in the street view day and night. It's never because I'm sure I know you ain't it. You want to resolve these problems. You want to resolve the violence problem, the gun problem, the hunger problem. You want to resolve all these things. You're the person who spent your life working on resolving stuff. You didn't just use words. You OK, but you rolled up your sleeve for the last 40 years and try and solve hunger in the elderly, among others in this country. so but if you want if we want to be able to accomplish these things, we have to.

And so do you, and so do you. Yeah,

Break down these barriers and the way is what I'm saying is the way to break down these barriers is to recognize that people have their point of view for a legitimate reason and then accept that and And they will trust you they will never trust you you say well, you're just you know You're just wrong and you see this the wrong way that will never engender trust if you want trust what we have to say each other is to recognize I Hear you. I know you have a reason for feeling the way you do and I'm gonna assume that you're a good person So let me hear your reasons why you feel that way. And then I'd like you to hear my reasons. Let's talk without fighting because we two have different points of views and we both have our reasons for feeling that way. That's what I'm talking about. And that's dealing with what I call the existing narrative. If you want people to trust you, you have to get into their force field. And the only way to do it is to accept that they have a legitimate way for feeling the reason for feeling the way they do, both as individuals and as societies. That's all I'm really talking about.

And I agree with you. I'm just saying it's not even a question of a point of view. think when we have to level the playing field and decide, are we talking about opinion or fact? And that's the issue. think the narrative nowadays is what's the difference between the facts? Are they there? Are they real? And what's your opinion about the facts? And I think when we can separate the two, we can look at the facts on the one hand, and maybe we don't agree to the facts. are the facts of how many people are unemployed, for example. We'll never know how many people are unemployed unless we can look at those numbers and those are the facts. And then you can give me an opinion about why those people are unemployed. That's the issue.

Right, so I think what you just said is very important. We can look at facts and as you heard me say, facts change. just be careful with facts, right? When you're so sure you're right, that's the time the bells should go off in your head because facts change all the time on every level, even in the highest level of science and physics. So they change all the time. But why, how we interpret those facts, that's the thing. But more importantly, how we interact with each other. You talked about trust. can't stress this enough. Don't fly in the face of the other person's existing narrative or what you would turn their comfort zone. Don't fight that. If you fight that, you will lose. Everybody loses. And we want everybody to win. We want a better society. We want less stress in people's lives. can guarantee you if you open your mind. I'm not talking about you, I'm talking if one opens their mind and says, OK, that other person has a reason for believing the way they do, even though it's 180 degrees opposite to what I believe, they have a legitimate reason I want to hear it. I am not threatened by that. I'm willing to listen to it and I want to interact with that person on a level where we each care about each other and recognize that each other has our legitimate reasons for feeling the way we do. When you do that, conversations begin, friendships develop, and before you know it, you move way down the line, maybe you haven't agreed on everything or anything, but it's a much more harmonious way to live as a society and absolutely as an individual. And that's really what I really wanted to talk about today. And I can see that we've argued our way to the end of the podcast.

No, but that's good. And I think that's important that we don't necessarily agree on everything and that's just fine. And I think today's a horrible day in the world. Today we've seen deaths. We've seen deaths on our own shore. We've seen deaths in Australia. And we would be remiss if we didn't talk about the fact that maybe if we looked at things differently, why can't we all just get along? We don't have to have people going and shooting up schools and shooting up Hanukkah celebrations and going into the, you know.

Yep, listeners should know we're recording this probably a couple of weeks before it airs. So this is the day that, right.

But that's fine, right. But this is the day it happened. And by the way, maybe in a couple of weeks the same thing will happen again. Once we can start kind of, I don't know, this is so Pollyanna, but maybe we can start loving each other and caring about each other. Maybe none of this will happen. we can argue that's, is healthy, arguing is healthy. Violence is not.

A hundred, you know me, if I could change one thing in this world, I'd eliminate every ounce of violence on the planet. That'd be the first thing I could do. But I haven't gotten that, I haven't gotten that power yet. So I'm still waiting for it.

If more people would listen to this podcast, when would we do that? Anyway, I just thought I would end it that way because I think it's good to argue little bit. It's like point, counterpoint, but it's also always to remember that at the end of this, I love you, you love me. If we just had a little bit more love in the world, we wouldn't have, I think we wouldn't have half the problems we have.

We definitely need more love in the world, just to wrap this up, since you usually give me the last word, I don't know why you do that. You're very kind. But the message is understand the narrative by which the other person with whom you're talking is operating, whether it be the government talking to the public or you talking to a friend or an acquaintance or somebody you've never met. Always remember to keep in mind under what narrative are they operating and try as hard as you can to accept that

Yes, you got the last word.

narrative and not to fight that narrative. Because if you fight that narrative, you will get nowhere.

You got it. It's a good note to end on. I appreciate it. We appreciate our listeners and we'll see you all next time.

Yes, thanks again, Ina. Thank you all for listening and we'll try and behave better next time. No, won't. Okay, bye everybody. Thanks.

No what? No what? Come on! Peace.