Episode 52: Interview with Dr. Ellen Langer--Part II

Thanks Ellen Langer (01:16.6) And there's some truth to that. So let me tell you, and I talk about this in the mindful body. I went out to dinner, a friend's house for dinner. It was right before Christmas Eve, two days before. I get home and all of my neighbors are outside because my house had gone up in smoke. And I lost 80 % of what I owned. So that's a biggie, right? I wasn't happy about it. I'm not saying I wasn't that wonderful. And I called the insurance agent the next day. And when he came, he said, in his 25 years on the job, this was the first time that the damage was worse than the call. Usually, my God, my God. And he gets there and it's nothing. I'm not bragging, just sharing that for me, I had already lost whatever I lost and throwing my sanity away as well.

The biggie.

You Ellen Langer (02:11.784) you know, was not going to buy me anything. And it's also realizing that what I lost represented in some sense who I was in the past, and this provided a different way of going forward. Now, the reason that this is such a good story is that I moved into the Charles Hotel, me and my two little dogs, and I was a sight to be seen. You know, most people don't have their dogs, and here I had two. And I went out to Christmas Eve for dinner. I came back to the hotel and my room was full of gifts, not from the owner of the hotel, not from the management, but from the so-called little people, the people who parked my car, the chambermaids, the waiters and waitresses. I mean this in all sincerity. It took me years to be able to tell that story without it bringing tears to my eyes. And every Christmas I'm reminded of the basic goodness of people. And I don't remember, except for one thing, what I actually lost in the fire. So net-net, this terrible thing turned out to be a very positive experience for me.

You know, this is one of the reasons I was so excited to have you here because you're the first person in my life. who actually sees this the same way that I do, which is there is no such thing as a good or bad event. There just are events and our brain, everything is processed through our brain. So examples that I use and I don't wanna take up, I'm much rather listen to you talk, but I just wanna explain to you why this was such a big deal for us to have you, especially for me to have you on. If you see a lion take after a gazelle and tear it to shreds, most people would be, lion's not upset, the other animals aren't upset. It's the same event. It's because our brain interprets things. So when we are confronted with a situation or event, just as you said so eloquently, Ellen Langer (04:01.138) Yeah.

It has no meaning until we interpret it in our brain. So since we have the power to interpret it, we get to decide how we interpret it. It's what we call the Viktor Frankl rule. Viktor Frankl said, one thing you cannot be taken from you is how you view things. And so you're the first person, when I read your books, I was like, my God, I've got to talk to this woman. Because it's just such an important point that you make and you've elaborated in your books to help people deal with stress. It's not a magic trick. It's very real. Ellen Langer (04:21.747) Right. Ellen Langer (04:41.778) No, exactly. So the other day I was doing a podcast and I was explaining how things in and of themselves are neither good nor bad, right? And then I said, so for example, if my internet goes out, so what, I'll go have lunch. The funny thing was right after I said that the internet went out and I was glad that I was true to myself because I didn't care at all. did go and have lunch.

You

You can go now. Ellen Langer (05:09.224) You know, that when you say to yourself, it a tragedy or an inconvenience? Most of the time, it's merely an inconvenience. But there's something that people can do that's pretty simple. you experience stress, two things have to be met. One, you're predicting that something is going to happen. And two, that when it happens, it's going to be terrible. And people don't understand that prediction is an illusion. Now, you can predict for the group. but not the individual. So an example, I'm fond of, I'm gonna shoot one basket against Michael Jordan. Who's gonna win? Well, you'd be foolish to put your life savings on Michael Jordan. He occasionally misses and I occasionally get it in, but also he might say to himself, what does it cost if I let the older woman win? So when you generate all the reasons that

Hahaha. Ellen Langer (06:06.9) It may not turn out the way you expect, you know, I'm going to screw up the project. Well, give yourself three, five reasons why you won't screw up the project. And so then it immediately feels, you know, more, well, who knows what's going to happen. Then comes the fun thing and Mark, you'll like this. Then say to yourself, let's assume it does happen. How is that actually an advantage? And when you realize all the ways it's an advantage, so for me, whatever happens, happens. If this happens, it's good. If that happens, it's good. And that right now people live their lives. If there's something that's good, they kill themselves to get it. If there's something they think is bad, they have to run like hell away from it. With this attitude, you basically be still and just enjoy whatever life presents.

Let me ask you question if I might. You said that your spouse wants to know how that's stressed. Are you ever stressed? And you said, no. Does it rub off on your spouse? Well, okay, but does it rub off on your spouse? Is your spouse? there you go. Okay. Ellen Langer (07:03.092) I didn't say no, I said rarely. No, that's no, no, my only failure. My spouse is my only failure in life. But you know that stress is a way of being for certain people, you know, and so the change is not just about stress, it's about reorganizing your whole self. And if your whole self is basically pretty happy, maybe less inclined, but you for most of us that realizing that We don't have to feel this negative way. You know, something that I suggest that'll sound silly, but if people go and thread a needle, next time you're bored, lonely, depressed, sad or stressed, thread a needle. And then as soon as you get the needle through that little hole, and then ask yourself, while you were doing this, were you stressed? Were you lonely? No. You know, and so you see, gee, I'm in charge. And so all I need to do is think differently and then simply or complexly ask the question, how might this actually be an advantage?

You know, I think that is a fascinating and I completely agree with your point of view. think Enid was getting at something though is when she asked you about your spouse and we talk about this a lot. No, we're not going to talk about your spouse. We're to talk about meeting that. How do you convince other people that this is the right way to do it? That's what she's getting at. you know, Ellen Langer (08:28.848) I don't want to talk about this this class.

Right. Ellen Langer (08:37.78) Yeah, sure. No, it's not that hard. I mean, that's why I'm on this show with you. That's why I keep writing these books. It's, you know, there are some people who instantly get it. Some people who over time get it. And there are some who, you know, it just doesn't work for them. And that's fine. But if you're trying to convince somebody, the first, the best exam, the best way of teaching is by example. And then, you know, when somebody says, oh my God, you say, oh, that's great because.

Yeah. Ellen Langer (09:06.068) So I said, you know, I'm not a complainer and I don't experience stress, but I'm not from another planet. So when I was a little younger, I remember saying to a friend, these hot flashes are driving me crazy. And she was stunned. said, Ellen, you know, if I said that to you, you know what you would say to me? I said, what? She'd say, think of it as losing weight. I said, that's right. And then I never got another hot flash and I was so disappointed. You know, so.

Yeah Ellen Langer (09:34.354) The way to convince people, oftentimes, you just show them this other way down. mean, here, since if Enid and I were talking and she had the example, I could come up with a different way of looking at something specifically, which would be much more compelling for her. But as a general rule, for most people, ask yourself, dig deep if you have to, how might this be good? You know, my students, so these are Harvard students and they're all grade crazy. And, you know, so to get them to realize that if they got a B rather than an A, it's not going to destroy their lives. And, you know, how might that be an advantage? Because there's a tremendous amount of stress that simply comes from, you know, feeling the pressure of getting good grades.

So what do you tell them? What do you tell them? Why is it, how can it be an advantage? Ellen Langer (10:30.292) an advantage in that over time there's less stress, but also that perhaps it's a message that you need to be studying differently, or that you don't really like the topic. If you get all A's, for example, ridiculous, but if you got all A's and you get a B in something, well, why? What is there about that? so then you say, well, I really love this thing. Well, then you learn how to study differently. Or you say, yeah, it's not from me. I'm not so interested in astrophysics. You know, my father was. Let him study it.

So let me ask you, is wearing the crown as this crown of the mother of mindfulness, and let's talk about mindfulness. In the book you say, mindfulness is defined as actively noticing novelty or considering new alternatives. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Ellen Langer (11:23.666) Okay, so Enid, let me tell you, when many people hear the word mindfulness, they think of meditation. And I did some early work on meditation and it's fine, but it's just different. Mindfulness, meditation is you take yourself out of the world, sit quietly and meditate for 20 minutes, twice a day, with the understanding that eventually that's going to lead to post meditative mindfulness. What I'm talking about is very much in the world. and it's immediate. all you need to see most people are oblivious to the fact that they're mindless. My research over 45 years shows me sadly, most of us are mindless almost all the time. Now the thing is, when you're mindless, you're not there to know you're not there. So let me give you some examples. Let me ask you, Enid, since women are supposed to get stressed with math, I'm gonna do simple arithmetic. Simple arithmetic, okay. How much is one plus one?

I know. Ellen Langer (12:24.212) You can't be nervous already. This is the thing that every... Okay, but for those who haven't yet read it, one of many questions, this is the thing we think we know best. So much so if somebody were to ask an adult how much is one plus one, they'd probably sneer at them or what have you. But it turns out that one plus one is two only if you're using the base 10 number system.

Well, we read your book, we know the answer.

I know. Ellen Langer (12:53.78) If you're using a base two number system, one plus one is written as 10, but people don't know, they could care less about number systems. You take one pile of laundry, add one pile of laundry, one plus one is one. You take one cloud plus one cloud, one plus one is one. You take one wand of chewing gum plus one wand of chewing gum. Okay, I mean, somebody sent me one the other day, which was great. You take one pizza, you add one pizza, one plus one is two. But you take one lasagna and you add one lasagna and you get...

You got a big lasagna. Right. Ellen Langer (13:23.71) What lasagna? Lasagna. So in the real world, it doesn't equal to as or more often as it does. Now, the point is next time you don't answer mindlessly because you realize context will determine what answer you want to give, all of a sudden you have a choice. So when Marx asks you, eat it, how much is one plus one? You can say one, two, 10, and perhaps there are other alternatives as well. When you're mindless, you don't have any choices. When you're mindless, The past is determining everything you do in the present. And that if everything in the world stayed still, that wouldn't be bad. An example I'm fond of using, because as winter is approaching, this may actually save lives. So I ask people, what do you do when you're driving on ice and the car starts to skid? And people say, you gently pump the bricks to get control of the car. No, that's what your parents taught you, because that's what they were taught. They were taught that because anti-lock brakes didn't yet exist. What you do when you're skidding on ice is firmly hit the brakes. Wow. So you learn something for safety sake. You keep doing the same damn thing all your life. And now what you're doing is actually maladaptive rather than protective. All right. So this mindfulness, which is an awareness that we don't know that we get.

Sorry. Ellen Langer (14:50.206) by noticing new things about the things we thought we knew. And then you come to see you didn't know it at all. So there are really two ways of becoming mindful. One is top down and one is bottom up. The top down is recognizing the ubiquity of uncertainty. Nobody knows. Everything is always changing. You can't know. And when you come to realize, I don't know, then you tune in. If you knew what I was going to say next, you wouldn't listen, right?

True. Ellen Langer (15:19.982) And as soon as you know, you don't know. Okay, so you get to that same place from the bottom up, actively notice, you know, walk out your door and notice three new things. You've walked out of that same door for what, 10 years, 30 years, even six months. And you think you know it and you say, wow, you didn't know it. Take your spouse, if you're married, a roommate, a best friend, a boss, it doesn't matter. Notice three, five new things about them. And all of a sudden you keep doing this. And then you become more more convinced, hey, I don't know. Now, most of us, most of the time know we don't know. The mistake is that we think we should know. So we pretend. All right. And what I'm telling you is the way you want to be in this world is confident, but uncertain. All right. That certainty is mindless. You can't be certain when things look different from different perspectives, when things are changing over time. And as soon as you think you know, a fun way of understanding mindlessness is that we're frequently in error, but rarely in doubt. So certain certainty is what's killing us. Now, when you're actively noticing, wait one second Mark, when you're actively noticing, neurons are firing and 45 years of research has shown me that this is literally and figuratively in life.

That's right. You know what? No, go ahead. You're the guest. Ellen Langer (16:46.452) And this is what you're doing when you're having fun. You know, can't have fun as a robot. You know, when you're playing games, when you fall in love, when you go to a restaurant and you taste something spectacular, you're there. Now it's very sweet. The world, you know, believes you should be in the moment. And that's nice, but it's empty because you don't know when you're not in the moment. So I'm telling you how to be in that moment. And, you know, It's easy, it's fun, and I have so much data that when you're mindful, people find you authentic, attractive, charismatic. The things that you do bear the imprint of your mindfulness. You we have orchestras performing mindlessly, which is, know, replicate a performance where you were really happy or make subtle changes that only you would know. And they're very subtle because they're playing classical music. We record them, we play them for people who know nothing about the study. People overwhelmingly prefer the mindfully played piece and the musicians prefer playing it. So you feel better, people like you more, what you do is better. And it's the essence of enjoyment. There's nothing that should stop us. All that stops us are these mindsets that we learned way back when. You know, that we took as true. One in one is two. Now for me, My whole life changed when I went to this horse event and this man asked me if I'd watch his horse for him because he's gonna get his horse a hot dog. Well, come on. I mean, I'm a straight, you read all my credentials. I am smart, right? I mean, I was that straight A student that you hated, right? So, but I'm a nice person and I didn't wanna laugh at him, but horses don't eat meat. Horses are habiborous. He comes back with the hot dog and the horse ate And that's when everything changed for me. What does it mean horses don't eat meat? How many horses were tested? How much meat was mixed with how much grain? know, whenever you do an experiment, you have to make these decisions. What kinds of horses, how many, what time of day are they going to be fed? What kind of meat is going to be mixed with what kind of grain? And then after all of that, you find that most of the horses didn't eat meat. Now it's too much of a mouthful, so that's Ellen Langer (19:10.6) translated for all of us as horses don't eat meat. And so all of our facts are suspect. Now for a normal person, that could be a little scary. For me, it was exciting because it meant all the things that people say can't be, how do they know? And an alternative title that I was going to use for the mindful body was who says so. Because, and I think in some ways at some time, We should all become our three-year-old selves. And somebody tells us something with this great certainty, who says so? And ask yourself, how might it be otherwise? Which is great fun. Anyway, so there you are.

So. Enid has heard me say and our listeners heard me say that I've had it with conventional wisdom because it's almost always wrong, which is in a sense what you're saying. You have to question everything. Here's another topic. Enid is very big on talking about stress and that's one of the reasons we're very excited to have you. She's sick of hearing me talking about it, but it's great for me because you're going to say very similar things in a more erudite, experienced, and knowledgeable way. So I want to bring up the topic of choice, which you talk about and I talk about... Ellen Langer (20:18.28) Yeah, well, something about choice that's very funny. People want choice, but they're afraid of doubt. But you can't have choice if you don't have doubt. And doubt is scary because you worry that there's going to be a wrong choice. But choices aren't right or wrong. There are ways of looking at any alternative that makes it right or wrong. And so there's nothing to be afraid of. When you deeply understand that you're in charge of your response to anything that happens, the world just becomes an easier place to live in. What did you want to ask me about,

So people worry about, Jay, anything from you go into a restaurant, should I order this or should I order that? And of course, this is a simple choice, but there are obviously many more complex choices that people struggle with every day. Ellen Langer (21:09.532) No, the only one that gets me crazed is what to order.

That's good, that's very healthy. But you know what I'm talking about, people worry all the time, you write about this, you've talked about this many, many times, and again, for me, it's great to hear somebody else talk besides me.

Hahaha. Ellen Langer (21:27.208) Well, okay, so this is all about decision making. And it ties in with Enid's concern about stress because it's making those decisions that lead us to be stressed, right? my God, if I choose the wrong person, the wrong job, the wrong dish at a restaurant for me, you know, and so on. And people need to understand, well, first of all, many people think they should be doing cost benefit analysis, and that's mindless.

Right. Ellen Langer (21:56.852) But that's what we're all taught. A cost benefit analysis suggests that there are certain things that are bad. Those are the costs. There are other things that are good. Those are the benefits. And when you add them up, it's going to tell you what to do. But as I've just said, every cost is a benefit. Every benefit is a cost. It all depends on how you view it. So if I said to you, Enid, do you want to meet my friend Mark? He's very impulsive. No, why you kidding? Why would I wanna meet him? I say, Enid, you wanna meet my friend Mark? He's very spontaneous. Yeah, I wanna meet him. But impulsive and spontaneous are the same thing. Mark, you wanna meet my friend Enid? She's so damn inconsistent. Why would I wanna meet her? Mark, you wanna meet my friend Enid? She's so flexible, it's incredible. All right, so no matter what it is we're looking at.

Yeah. Ellen Langer (22:53.822) can be understood in exactly the opposite way. So it can tell us what to do. Now people need to understand when you're faced with a decision, it means that the options are psychologically the same. So if I said to you, do you want A or B? There's no way, and if that were, you want to go to Paris or Florence, if you've never been to either, you can't really make a decision. at that point, because you don't know anything about it. So it's similar to A and B. If, on the other hand, you get some information and you find out A is $100 and B is $10,000, there's no decision. The choice follows mechanically once you articulate what those options are. All right. Now, you have to read the book to get all the subtleties about this very different view of decision making. But let me. stop myself, give people the bottom line so they don't worry if what I'm saying is too hard to understand as I briefly mentioned it. Rather than waste your time, this is very different from what people have taught, rather than waste your time trying to make the right decision, what we should be doing is almost randomly choosing an option and make it work. Don't waste your time making the right decision, make the decision right. All right, because as soon as you make a decision, that changes the whole game so you can never know what the alternative choices would have been. All so all regret is mindless. Regret suggests, oh, that other thing would have been better. It could have been better, it could have been worse, it could have been the same. But moreover, it's nothing. It all depends on the way we understand it. All right, so decision theorists mistakenly say you should gather information. Well, how much information? When do you stop? You know, that the next piece of information could change the choice entirely. So that doesn't work. And so there are so many ways where it would be irrational to do what people think they should do, which they don't do. You know, people gather information typically after the fact to justify the decision. Ellen Langer (25:17.48) rather than to make it. But decision-making is stressful thinking there's a right answer. And there is no right answer. We create the rightness of the answer, so to speak.

Yeah, I love the idea that you want to try and make your decision right rather than pick the right choice. One of the I just Briefly, I don't want to spend too much time with me talking, but the reason I think choices, that those are the right choices, is that when we make a choice, we create a cascade of events, which the outcome of which is impossible to predict. As you said, we live in a quantum world, we live in a world of probabilities you can never know. So when you make a choice, that initiates a cascade of events, which is affected by the choices of the eight billion other people on the planet. There's no way to know how it's going to work out. And so when you say, if I only had done that, go ahead. Ellen Langer (25:59.102) Sure, Yeah, we're people, we're people. I'm sorry. what I was excited. That's why I interrupted. Forgive me. But decision making relies on predictability. And as I just said a moment before, prediction is an illusion. You know, should I have the apple pie or pecan pie from Thanksgiving? Well, what you're doing is thinking that the pecan pie you've tasted in the past will be the same taste to you as this pecan pie.

No, no, go ahead.

Go right ahead. Ellen Langer (26:35.368) the apple pie in the past, but your body is a whole different thing. The pie is a different thing. Everything is different. And so, you know, there's no way of knowing in advance. And so randomly choose what I do. I'm an and rather than an or person, I'll take a little piece of each, you know, but I think that it's the worry that you're not gonna make the right decision that causes the stress that leads to all sorts of illnesses.

You Ellen Langer (27:03.897) and the cascade of problems that you were suggesting.

Well, that's why I'm always focusing these questions because of Enid, right? I know it's in her head. This is such a great tool that you're talking about to minimize stress. When you take the stress out of choices, out of decision making, for most people that is a huge source of their stress. So this is so valuable.

But you know, let me throw the sense word banding my name about. I'm about to be 76 years old. Yes, I know, but I'm proud of it. I'm proud of it. There's no reason to hide our age. Age is something we should be proud of. And I have, as Mark will mention a lot, that I do feel stressed about everything. Are you ever too old to start thinking about being mindful?

you Ellen Langer (27:33.594) when you're a baby. the age. Ellen Langer (27:53.524) No, no, of course not. In fact, I think that for many people as you get older, you know, you've been there, done that, and you saw it didn't matter, you become more mindful, right? You know, that at the beginning, oh my God, oh my God, and you get older, it just doesn't matter anymore, and you come to see that. I think it's also the case, ironically, as you get older, everybody else is younger, and younger people just aren't scary.

Yeah. Ellen Langer (28:20.296) the way older people are, know, teachers and the policemen and your parents. I had this experience where I was stopped young and I got a speeding ticket and I was really scared because I was 18 and the policeman was 25. And then I had this fun experience where I was stopped again and now I wasn't scared. And I thought, wow, look at how I've grown.

All Ellen Langer (28:46.6) But no, it was because I was 60 and he was still 25. And so, and it's never too old to do anything, but there's no reason why people should be so attached to their ages. If you think about the different things you can do, different parts of your body, I mean, my wrists are really young.

Right.

You Ellen Langer (29:12.852) My ears are really old. mean, it's sort of, why give ourselves one age? And we're making choices and we need to understand, this is an important concept to me. Probably, I have so much literature where I'm able to, when we have people living longer, curing diseases or ameliorating the symptoms of many real diseases, but still. This one thought was the biggest for me, that behavior makes sense from the actor's perspective or else the actor wouldn't do it. Nobody wakes up in the morning and says, today I'm going to be impulsive, obnoxious, aggressive, awkward. So when they are this way, and that's because from their perspective, so for me, I might say to you, I'm so gullible, it defies belief, which I am, taken by two. psychopaths, okay, lot of money. And, you know, help me not be so gullible. And no matter what we do, we're going to fail because going forward, my intention is not to be gullible. Going forward, my intention is to be trusting. And as long as I'm trusting, I'm going to be gullible. Now, if I want to stop being gullible, I have to stop valuing being trusting. And I don't want to. So you see how you become less judgmental of yourself, life becomes much easier, less judgmental of other people, relationships improve. Why did I start talking about this?

You know, it's funny you did because I was about to ask you exactly that about radical empathy and how you talk about people always have a reason for doing something. And I think that is a fascinating topic that you talk about in your writing. know, how we judge people, like you said, and yet they always have a reason for behaving the way they do. And in this era right now of tremendous divisiveness, this is a very helpful thing to keep in mind. I'd like you to just talk about that if you would, please. Ellen Langer (30:58.772) Yeah. Ellen Langer (31:04.478) Now... Ellen Langer (31:22.228) Yeah, well, let me tell you, we did a study a long time ago, very simple study. We gave people, I don't remember if it was two or 300, anyway between one and 300 behavior descriptions. it had impulsive, gullible, obsessive, you know, and so on. And people were asked, check those things that are true about yourself that you keep trying to change, but keep failing. So they do that for me. I would check. impulsive, gullible, and the rest are secret. Okay, then you turn the page over and in a mixed up order are the positive versions of each of these words. Now the instruction to people is check those things you really value about yourself. My being trusting and spontaneous. And as long as I'm trusting and spontaneous there are times I'm going to seem impulsive and gullible. It can't be otherwise.

Hahaha. Ellen Langer (32:19.436) And so it changes our relationship, it changes everything. Just that very simple idea. Now, it doesn't mean if somebody does something that feels just terrible to you, that you have to accept it. To understand why, if you're trying to change what they do, you have to do it from their perspective. And we're brought up in a mindless world. with all sorts of horses don't eat meat, one in one is two, absolutes. If you see somebody do something and you're in the world of there are good things and bad things and you notice the bad thing, then the person becomes bad for having done this. And you go through so many years of your life like this, it becomes radical to realize all of those understandings were wrong. You know, that horses sometimes eat meat. One in one isn't always two. Mark isn't always inconsistent. Or it Ewing who's flexible. You know, that recognizing that everything can be understood in multiple ways. So we're putting together now, just designed a mindful school. And because I think schools are the biggest culprits. schools and our parents and our parents because they went to school. And we're taught all of these absolutes. And we're taught, you know, that some of us are better than others. You know, I say something in my class that, and I say it in a way that first they gasp, I tell them, I do not believe, and I don't, that there is anybody out there that is better than I am. Pause. And then I say to them, and I don't believe I'm better than anybody else. so, and that's, you know, school teaches us, right? The A student is better than the D student. You know, so I wrote a little song for my grandkids, a little ditty. You know, I'm not going to sing it you, but it goes to the old Sarah Lee commercial. Everybody doesn't know something. Everybody knows something else. Everybody can do something. Everyone can do something else. And if we... Ellen Langer (34:37.608) feel better about ourselves and our relationships. We don't have to be so judgmental of other people and keep putting other people down. And lots of the divisiveness that you were talking about, Mark, I think would actually go away. There'd be no reason to be looking for bad guys to justify our feeling bad.

Yeah, I like to say that nobody is uniquely ungifted. Ellen Langer (35:03.698) Yeah, great. I like that.

For those who have not had the opportunity yet to have read the book, The Mindful Body, and I really do suggest it. It's a marvelous book. It's a life changer. Can you talk a little bit about the counterclockwise study? To me, it is just so fascinating. Please. Ellen Langer (35:18.674) Yeah, sure. Yeah. Well, you know, so let me tell you why I did the study. But first, this is a famous study. Now, how obnoxious that I call one of my own studies famous. That's because if you tune into the Simpsons Go to Havana, they talk about the study. So you know you've made it. But there was a larger idea behind the study, which was so I had done several experiments where we make people more mindful than they live. Now, how could that happen? The real question behind all of this is how do you get from this fuzzy thing called the thought to something material called the body? And that's a problem because we're taught mind-body dualism. Everybody thinks you have a mind and a body, but if you have them, how do they communicate? And nobody can answer that. All right, and we've all had experiences. You're walking down the street in the fall and a leaf blows in your face. And all of a sudden you get startled because you don't know what's a leaf, your blood pressure and pulse increase, and then you realize that it was nothing. So we've all had the experience, but nevertheless, science can't explain it and still can't. We have a drug called a placebo that I think is our strongest medication where you take this nothing, you think it's something, and all of a sudden the body heals. So to me, I said, wait a second. These are just words. In fact, mind, body, and elbows, we could have said, and then we'd have a different organization of people. So I said, let's put the mind and the body back together as one thing. And if it's one thing, wherever you're putting one, you're necessarily putting the other. The first test of this was a study you talk about, the counterclockwise study. So we take old men, elderly men. I hate those words now that I'm the age I am, but nevertheless, that's what I talked about.

Hahaha.

We're all thinking the same thing. Ellen Langer (37:16.884) So we take seniors, senior men, and we're going to have them live in a retreat that we retrofitted to 20 years earlier. And they're going to live there as if they're their younger selves. So they're going to be discussing movies and current events from the past as if it was just happening right now. So now if we put the mind back in time, what happens? And the results were kind of amazing. Enid (37:17.1) Yeah. Ellen Langer (37:46.164) that in a week we found their vision improved, their hearing improved, their strength, memory, and they looked noticeably younger. And to this day, I still have never read a study where seniors' hearing has improved without medical intervention. I don't even think they have medical interventions for people over 70 to improve their hearing. So this was quite remarkable. Then we've done, and I talk about all of them in the mindful body, lots of fun studies to show the enormous effect our minds have over our health. Now, people need to know, I say this out of respect for you, Mark, as a physician, that medical model taught not that long ago that our thinking was irrelevant. I'm sure doctors even 40 years ago wanted everyone to be happy. But the only way you were going to get sick, according to the medical world, was the introduction of an antigen. All right, so our thoughts were irrelevant. Well, that's not the case. So let me tell you the next counter clock, the next mind-body-unities study. We take chambermaids and we ask them, how much exercise do you get? Well, these women are exercising all day long. but they think exercise is what you do afterward, because that's what the surgeon general says, he sits behind a desk. So they don't think they're getting exercise. So the first thing is, if exercise is good for you, these women should be healthier than socioeconomically similar others who are not exercising. Turns out they're not. Okay, now the study. It's so simple. This is Ali Krum and I did this. We take half of these chamber maids, And we teach them that their work is exercise. Making a bed is like working at this machine at the gym and so on. So at the end of this 15 minute discussion, half of them now realize, my work is exercise. The others don't. We take many, many measures. Neither group is working any harder than the other. They're not eating any differently. Nevertheless, at the end of the study, those who had changed their minds Ellen Langer (40:05.308) Now seeing their work as exercise. They lost weight. There was a change in waist to hip ratio. Their blood pressure came down. Well, let's just leave it that. They actually lost weight. Body mass index is what I meant to say. All people really care about is that they lost weight, but the other make it sound very sciencey, right? Body mass index, that might be.

you

So I have a question. you certainly not, I'm not offended at all as a physician because anybody who's ever used a placebo knows it works, right? A lot of times. So clearly there's a mind-body relationship. We're in the same unit, you they're attached, there are fibers that go, so we are attached. I have, we have a long list of questions we wanted to ask you, but this one's not on it, but I want to ask it to you because of what you just said. So I agree with everything you said about the fact that our minds affect our body. I don't think that's in dispute. Ellen Langer (41:05.396) There's not effect because you see, so I've been doing this for 50 years is when I first talked about mind, body unit. So initially at mind and body man after I think I've influenced things, so you have mind and body connection. They're not connected. If you see it as a connection, you still have, how do you get from a thought to something physical? Yeah. Yeah. markekleinmd (41:20.3) They're one thing. Yeah. No, I got you. They're one unit. I get it. I agree with that. although I have been known to say that our mind and bodies are definitely together, but they're not necessarily the best of friends because sometimes despite our best efforts, it doesn't work out. the really question I want to ask you, and even if doesn't know I'm going to ask this because this wasn't in our detailed plan of all the millions of questions we want to ask you, which is what do you think about consciousness? How does consciousness play into this whole concept to you? Ellen Langer (41:36.36) Okay. Ellen Langer (41:53.812) Well, I mean, I think we can say, you know, mindfulness is consciousness. I don't know that we need to go beyond that. But let me go back to some of these mind, body, unity studies, because I think people will be surprised, you know, losing weight by just changing your mindset. But you'll like the next one we did was on diabetes. So we take people who have type two diabetes, we take all sorts of measures, we set them down at a computer. And the reason for this will be clear. Next to the computer is a clock. Unbeknownst to them, the clock is rigged. So for a third of the people, the clock is going twice as fast as real time. For a third, half as fast as real time. For a third, real time. And the question we're gonna ask is, does blood sugar level follow perceived time, what that clock is telling them, or real time? And it turns out, it's perceived time. We have people in a sleep lab. without them knowing it, we sneak in and we move the clock. So when they wake up, they think they got two hours more sleep than they got, two hours fewer or the amount of sleep they got. And again, biological and cognitive functions follow perceived amount of sleep. We have the most recent that my graduate student, Peter Unglund, I recently published, we inflict a wound and now people... who had this, it's not a big wound because I'm not a sadist and even if I were they wouldn't let me do it. But we inflicted wound and again we're using a clock and the clock is going twice as fast as real time, half as fast as real time or real time. And the question we're asking is, does that affect wound healing? Most people would assume the wound is gonna heal as long as it takes for the wound to heal, but no, the wound heals based on perceived time. You know, just think about it, you break your leg. Mark, how long does it take for a broken leg to heal?

It depends how bad it is, so it's quite variable. Well, let's take something that's easier. No, no, let's take a risk. Let's say six months, six weeks for a risk fracture to heal. Okay. Ellen Langer (43:51.196) Okay, but come on, basically. me more, just throw out another. Is it three months, six months? Okay, okay. Okay, all let's use a wrist pressure. Six weeks. A little kid, big kid, it doesn't matter. We have the doctor tells you it's gonna take six weeks to heal and it takes six weeks to heal.

Whatever, something simple. I was thinking of a little kid. Little kid, six weeks. Okay. Ellen Langer (44:17.32) But not everybody, which is what Mark was implying, is gonna take the same time to heal. Not all wounds take the same amount of time. You we call it a broken wrist, but you know, all broken wrists vary in so many ways. And what the doctor often tells you becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And so what the doctor should say, I think, is that the fastest healing time I know of is, but maybe you can even beat that. and see how long it takes. know, fatigue is interesting. I have so many of these studies. People think that fatigue is the body's natural response to exertion or something, you know, that you're gonna get tired when you get tired, period. No. So many of these studies are complicated. The simplest one. Let's say I ask you, Mark, to do 100 jumping jacks. And I say, when are you tired? Almost always you tell me around seven. Now, if I ask you to do 200 jumping jacks, Mark, tell me when you're tired. It's around 140. Okay, you know, a person who is word processing all day, oh God, it's so painful, I can't stand. Then they go home and they play the piano. There's a study you'll love that I found that Frank Beach did many, years ago, where he takes a little boy rat,

You Ellen Langer (45:47.636) introduces a little girl rat and they'll copulate until the little boy rat can't take it anymore, right? He needs a refractory period. However, if the little boy rat, little girl rat, they copulate immediately, you introduce a new little girl rat, he can start going all over again. Now, the point of it is when it's new, we have renewed energy and new or older in our minds again, not in the world at large. And so if you see things the same old, same old, it's going to be boring. If you notice the ways it's brand new, it's going to be exciting.

You know, one of the reasons that I was so entranced with this book, I have been working with the elderly now for over 40 years. And now that I've become one, we realize, we think that, and you mentioned this in the book several times, that, well, we're losing our memory and that's just a natural part of aging and et cetera, et cetera. This is a natural part of aging. What I'd love to see, I envy your students because they get the benefit of this great wisdom every day. But how do we impart this to older folks? How do we, I work in a senior center, how do I talk to them about being mindless versus mindful? Ellen Langer (47:08.52) Yeah, okay, well, those are two very different questions. Let's take memory first. So, you know, they learned when they were younger, mindlessly, that when they get older, they're gonna lose their memory. And so we have to figure out, and I'll tell you how to change that. But I say to my students before they have learned that, and I'm giving a lecture on aging, and I ask them, let me start, so the class meets Tuesday and Thursday, so it's Thursday.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Right. Ellen Langer (47:38.388) And I say, what was the last thing I said on Tuesday? Nobody remembers. Okay, so when you're young, you're not infrequently forgetful. you see people trying to tell, the elder, those of us who are forgetting are thinking we should remember and we misremember how often we forgot in the past. And not remembering makes many things new. mean, so if I...

You Ellen Langer (48:07.954) remembered all those terrible things Mark had done. It's gonna be very hard when we're together for me to get past that. But it's a way to get past it. He said that there was a positive version to those, but forgetting is often a benefit. Imagine if you remembered everything, how would you get through the day? But be that as it may, what I also say, and there's lesson here for older people, but I ask my students, tell them, that I ask, how large is your dorm room? Now, these are people who are well off. they tell me how large the dorm room is. And I say, how large is your house? How many of you have two houses? So when your mother doesn't know where the scissors are, and you know where the scissors are in your dorm room, it's not the same thing, right? It's also the case that We don't remember a lot of things when there's no reason to remember. This was illustrated to me. I think I may even have this in the book. So my friend Ronnie told me this story. She said, mom, what's Susie's last name? And her mother says, Susie who? And she says, Susie Goldberg. So when there's reason to remember, we tend to remember more.

Hahaha Ellen Langer (49:32.186) So it's realizing to put all that together, there may be some changes in our memory for sure, but so what? Some of those changes are positive rather than negative. And it gives us a chance to, I forgot how to do this. Well, learning how to do something, you're mindful. So it's actually can be a good thing. Seniors have made this better now. by calling it a senior moment, which is better because it's not, Ellen forgot, but I'm part of this group that forgets, but still it's accepting that forgetting is bad. know, life changes as you get older. So when, you know, you're a young up and coming and you meet 10 important people, it's your benefit to know who you're speaking to, right? When I meet 10 people, I don't really care.

You Ellen Langer (50:27.24) You know, I can hear the names of all of them and I'm not gonna remember, but I'm not remembering not because I forgot, it's because I didn't learn it in the first place. So when you don't care, so you don't learn it in time one, then when you don't know it at time two, it's not because you forgot it. And that's a piece that people need to be aware of. So with your seniors, you know, ask them what are all the positive reasons. they might not remember all the things. Then life often changes. So imagine, I don't know if this is still true, but let's say, Enid, you're at a business and they're gonna have a Christmas party. And so Mark says, Enid, you're going to the Christmas party. And Susie says, Enid, you bringing any food to the Christmas party? And in the course of the time you were invited to the party, you've gotten 30 reminders. Now Mark got one damn invitation. He's not, in the business world anymore. He's not privy to all of these reminders. So when he forgets it, is it because he's older or is it because he wasn't given those reminders? So one, you don't care as much. Two, the world has changed around you and you're not asked to do all the things that would serve as reminders and so on. And when you start to list all of these things, it becomes inconsequential.

You know, I... Ellen Langer (51:53.8) What people are really worried about is not the forgetting. They're worried that the forgetting means they're going to get dementia. And that's a whole different story. And for that, people need to be aware of the small percentage of older people who actually get dementia.

Yes, yes.

I think part of the things that I think the three of us actually share, because we're all still quite active in doing a lot of interesting things, is that Ellen Langer (52:17.566) Okay.

We look at ourselves, I can talk for me and Enid, I'm gonna guess it's the same for you, because you're still a professor at Harvard, you're still writing paper, you're still writing books, you're still doing interviews, I'm sure you're super busy all the time, is that in our heads, I always say I'm gonna have, it's best when you get to a certain age to have all the mirrors removed in your house, because there's no sense reminding you something that's not necessary to know, right? You still have the ability to produce, I was telling Enid recently, I take piano lessons, I was telling my piano teacher, I write music, I said, I'm worried I'm not gonna write any new music. I'm at the age and she looks at me and why would you say that? And of course, three days later, I wrote a new piece of music. So I think that what you're talking about is so true that this mindfulness that you talk about, this being in the moment and I don't want to misuse your words, but I think I've read a lot of your stuff. Right. Ellen Langer (52:56.915) Yeah. Ellen Langer (53:08.072) Well, it is, is being in the moment, but the way to be there is just actively notice and you necessarily actively notice when you know you don't know. And the problem, one problem is as you get older, you know, people, many people think they do know, you know, I don't want to go to this thing because I was there before. you know, before, so I just gave a lecture down in Cancun and The last time I was in Cancun was 40 years ago. No, I didn't end up seeing the town because I flew in, did the lecture. But my guess is it's not the same town. So for older people to think, been there, done that, it's mindless because doing it now, the it that you're doing is probably very different. You know, you're playing tennis now, racquets are different from, you know, the wooden racket somebody might have used and so on. You're different if you're going to a place, the place is not the same. And even if it were exactly the same, you're not the same, your experience of it is likely to be very different. Yeah, so there, I think it's just for people to recognize how everything keeps changing. And when they know that it's, you know, look at the ways it's changing, then it becomes potentially interesting again and exciting. mean, you know, if the two of you came to visit me in my house right now, I'm in Cambridge, neither of you have been here before. So you'd walk in, you wouldn't have to practice being mindful. You'd walk in, you'd see some paintings. did she do those paintings? What is she, what is that strange thing over there? You know, it would naturally be interesting to you. And that's how easy it is to be mindful, which you just know you don't know, and so you look. And it's the essence of engagement. And so it's how you feel when you're feeling your best, when you're having fun. And so to teach the older people you're working with, how to have fun with something, all they need to do is engage it. Ellen Langer (55:22.938) notice about us, we did this study a while ago, we took people who hated football, women, people who hated rock music, people who, a lot of haters, people who hated classical music. And what we did, we had one group just do it, look at it or listen to it. Another group noticed one new thing about it. Another group noticed three new things about it. And the last group noticed six new things about

Yeah. Ellen Langer (55:50.778) And the more you noticed, the more you liked it. You you don't like football. You can watch the, know, pay attention to the rear ends of the football players. Doesn't matter. It gets you engaged. And that engagement, the neurons are firing. It's literally and figuratively enlivening. And it's so easy. There's no reason for everybody, you know, not to do it.

And I thought I was the only one who was looking at the rear ends of the football players. I'm glad to know that others are, thankfully. Ellen Langer (56:18.086) And oftentimes reveal more about myself and my

You know, we talk about embracing every moment because really what you're saying. So this is why I was so enamored by what you write about and talk about because obviously we like people that see the world in a similar way. It's a natural thing. But this is even more important because it's a message that we try and get across that, you know, I talk about life as our lives as a book. Each page contributes to the book. You can't rip out a page and expect the book to be the same. There's no moment that doesn't count. They all contribute. And so that's why we should embrace every moment. They're all equal. All moments tend to up being equivalent in our lives. I am sure you agree with that because that's really what you talk about all the time. Ellen Langer (56:59.346) Yeah, yeah, would, you know what, I say it a little bit differently and that life only consists of moments. And so if you make the moment, know, so people are depressed, they're lonely, they're bored, they're stressed. If you just make the moment matter, you know, I mean, you can't say, what am I gonna do with my life? Who knows what you're gonna do with your life? What am I gonna do in the next five minutes? And then five minutes more and five minutes more and you end up having had. you know, a lovely day. Yeah. No, I think that it all goes back, I think, to people thinking there's a right way to be, a right answer to things, a right thing to do, to eat, to drink, a right thing to say. And it's all, it's very stifling. And we need to break out of that. mean, let me finish with this notion that I think most of us are sealed in unlived lives. And it's really simple and rewarding to break the seal and to embrace uncertainty. And that will lead us to the health and happiness that we all seek.

What a great note to end on. know we've kept you probably longer than we should have, but as I said, we waited so long for this that we wanted to keep you as long as we could. I will end it, but two things. One quick question. When can we expect book number 13? Ellen Langer (58:28.914) Okay, well that's fun because I just wrote a children's book. Let me tell you a quick story about this. I was at a dinner party with people who were well-heeled, money, status, power, you know, whatever. And the conversation got around to antidepressants. And I was shocked that I was the only one there who had never been on antidepressants. And I thought, my God, how do kids stand a chance, you know, if all of their parents are unhappy? So. That was part of the motivation for that book. And that'll be out very shortly. And there are other things that, you know, soon to happen. But I don't want to take attention away from the mindful body because what people might not know. So I started writing this book as a memoir and then it became what it is. You know, so there were lots of sexy stories in there. My time with Hell's Angels, I was secretly married when I was too young to be married. you know, things like that to help illustrate the points. And, you know, you said before that the book is a life changer and that means a lot to me, which is why I keep writing these books, because it doesn't seem fair to me, you know. I was brought up by parents who were extraordinarily nurturing and loving. And I've had such a nice, mainly stress-free, happy life.

Yes. Ellen Langer (59:53.812) And I just keep trying to put it out there for people because I think the lesson, once you get it, it's pretty easy. And so the point is there will be another book probably unless the whole world instantly becomes more mindful. But I don't know, I don't know just when it'll be. markekleinmd (01:00:04.34) once you get it. Enid (01:00:15.662) Well, I'll be the first one online reading to buy that book, I can tell you. And the reason that it was important for me to have the two of you, Mark came to me, Mark and I actually are old, old, old friends. We went to school together way back when in the day. And then we both ended up here in Washington, DC. We hadn't been together for many, many, many years. And he wrote this book and said, you got to read the book. I read the book. He said, I want to do a podcast. I said, let's do the podcast. I didn't believe a word he said in the book. It was about mindfulness. I'm well, okay. And about thinking. different thoughts and I went well, but it has changed my life. It has changed my way of thinking as has your book. The two of you, I'm sitting here looking at both of you thinking, this is amazing. I have the privilege of talking to people who have changed my life. So I want to thank both of you. And I'll end this by saying two things, A, happy Thanksgiving, it's coming up and I think it's a wonderful time of year. love it. And then I want to end with something that you said in your book. I always do that with Mark. I usually end up reading something from his book. Today I'll read from yours. And it's on page 212 of the Mindful Body. And you said, in a mindful utopia, we would stop being judgmental and recognize that behavior makes sense to the actor from their perspective. The discomfort we feel when we are being judged would evaporate and we'd be willing to try new things without concern for what we're supposed to do or what everyone else is doing. This would result in a massive decrease in the amount of stress we'd experience. And with less stress comes better health. So to both of you, I wish you the best of health, the best of the new year. And I thank you so much for doing this, for joining Mark and me. And Mark, would let you have the last word. I guess I will let you have the last word. markekleinmd (01:02:01.779) Okay, well thank you so much, Dr. Engel. It's been an honor and a pleasure. As you can probably tell, we're in the same business. We're trying to make the world a better place. I'm on a mission, Enid's on a mission, to make the world more peaceful, less tranquil, less stressful, and give people the tools they need to do exactly what you've been talking about through your entire career, which is quite impressive. And it's been a great honor for us. And thank you so much. Enid, I love you. It's always been wonderful. Ellen Langer (01:02:26.74) Thank you. Enid (01:02:27.64) I love you too. markekleinmd (01:02:29.537) Thanks again. Thank you all for listening. Bye bye. Ellen Langer (01:02:31.292) is that. Enid (01:02:31.342) Thank you, Doctor.