Episode 46: Do Unto Others

Welcome to Wisdom from the Aerial View, the podcast for those who wish to learn how to crush their anxiety and find meaning and purpose in their lives. Hello, Dr. Klein, how are you today, Mark?

Great, how are you Enid?

I'm very good actually. You know, I will tell our listeners that I read an article in the Washington Post and I thought, is amazing. It was written by Dana Milbank. And then I got a text message from you telling me to read this article, which I said, look at that. So that's a good way for us to talk about today. And it's a study, was a study, a six year study out of Cornell University. And it adds some compelling evidence that the most efficient route to human flourishing may be a lot simpler than we've been making it. While there's no magic solution when it comes to human wellbeing, the evidence suggests a relatively easy exercise in articulating one's purpose can have outsize mental and even physical health benefits. And I thought, well, they obviously have been reading Mark's book, Wisdom from the Aerial View. Let me just read one other paragraph from Dana Milbank's column, and he says, In these grim times, the most efficient path to living a contented life may be to put ourselves through the same simple exercise of thinking about our purpose and then taking a step, even a modest one, toward fulfilling it. It's not a replacement for other mental health interventions, but the surest path to happiness for many of us could be as simple as this. Stop. trying to be happy and start figuring out how to make other people happy. What say you?

when I read this, I'm thinking, okay, well, you didn't need a six-year study, but I think it's nice you did that. And the professor who did this, the young guy, well, everybody appears young these days to us, but a young guy from Cornell, I think his name is Anthony Burrow, and I watched him on Michael Smirconis' show over the weekend. So we had him on, and he was very, very likable guy, obviously a very smart guy.

Yeah.

And he just had it right. mean, he just, it was nonprofessorial. It was more like, this should not be a surprise. In fact, I'm going to quote a line from the article also. there, right? There was another psychology professor, this guy is from George Mason, and he said the following, let's stop confusing humanity to think that it's more difficult than it really is.

Okay, y'all look at this.

and give them much clearer guidelines of how to do this, meaning reach happiness. And you've heard me say many times, I know people are gonna just... blow me off, but life is a lot simpler than we think in the sense that I don't mean to minimize all the things that we go through, that poverty and loneliness and illness and loss and all these things that are so difficult, they are not easy to deal with, but they are much easier when you understand why in the world you're here. Because when you understand why you're here, which is what we spend a lot of time talking about in the aerial view, These things become moments in your life, events in your life, pages in your book, and we don't blow them out of proportion. We understand that's our mission. We're here. We have a life. There's going to be some really great things. There are to be some difficult things. as we've said, some people, there are people for whatever reason who have it harder than others. Some people don't skate through because nobody skates through, but it's easier than for other people who every day or many days. are challenged and difficult. Still, these are all pages on our book, stories, they're moments in our lives, all moments are equivalent. We don't need to make this more complicated than it is. There's a character, excuse me, in my novel, Franklin Rock, which not to promote my book, but it's a fun book for those of you who haven't read it, I think you'll enjoy it, but, it's all about the same things we talk about on this podcast, but there's a character in my book, Maurice Burnside, and he, He basically tells the protagonist, Franklin Rock, that there's a trick to life. When things get tough, go help someone else.

Now, I won't spend too much time praising you because you get mad when I do, but everybody knows that Enid spent her life taking care of other people and she knows better than anybody, if you want to feel good, go help somebody else. And what this professor did in this study was, or you want to explain what they did in the study? Why don't you tell them what the study was about?

Well, no, mean, yeah, it's a great study. He basically gave the money, took kids at random and said, here, go basically, go spend it on something that's worthwhile, go spend it on something that you care about, go give back. My only concern about the study and the thing is about money. Why is everything, you and I were just having a conversation offline about... sports and how everything's about money. This too in many respects was about money. Why do we have to entice them with money? Why couldn't our purpose be, I don't know, just in giving of oneself as opposed to me giving you money to see what you do with the money? Now they didn't keep the money for themselves, granted. They did not. They gave it to something else to find some purpose. That was my only concern about the study. Why give somebody money?

You know, I think he did it because if you're sitting in classroom of college students, go, hey, we're going to do this experiment now. You go out and figure out something to do good for other people and we'll see how happy you are over the course of the next eight weeks. So you can't do it like that. That wouldn't work. So I think he just used it as an easy mechanism for a psychological experiment to see what happened. You know, we don't want, look, your point though is excellent. It was just, I forget where this was, where they wanted to give students high school students money to stay in school. Did you see that? And I'm thinking, oh my God, first of all, when you look at the data from this, it increased in a semester. The giving people this money was like a hundred dollars or a thousand dollars a month. I think it was a thousand a month, something like that, that it increased attendance in school by one point three days a semester. OK, well, come on now. You're 100 percent right. Motivating people with money.

Yes, yes I did. Yes I did.

Yeah, great.

is generally speaking a terrible idea. That's why I don't like universal basic income. I think we should, we're gonna help people, let's help people, but giving people money for doing nothing, that just can't work out well. That just flies in the face of what we know about how human beings work. So I'm with you. I think in this case, it was just a vehicle to see, to let them see that we're gonna give you something to, it could have given up, you know, boxes of, Girls got cookies and said, ahead and you can even yourself or you can give them whatever. I think it was just a vehicle, but I'm with you the whole way. The money part in the long run is not a good solution.

Yeah.

You know why? Because it's not scalable and it's not sustainable. So when you give me $500 to do good and I give it to the local food bank, it's done, over, boom. My whole thesis is about feeding people. And it's the old biblical. mean, if I give you, I can teach you how to fish. But the point of it is, if I can entice you to define your purpose, not by buying a purpose, but by inculcating to you how important

100%.

Right.

your purpose is and you in that, you in your life. don't know. Other than that, I love the study. I think it's important, you know.

No, I'm with you. so perhaps this particular group, there wasn't very many students. was a relatively. Was it 1200, was that big? Maybe you're right. I don't remember. Yeah, OK, well, whatever it was, if this if a large percentage once once you realize what what you can what generates fulfillment, happiness. Success.

I think it was 1200.

Yeah

then you want to do it again. Right. It's you know, it's a drug. Right. We know that. So.

But again, if I could just, but I don't want to equate fulfillment, happiness with money. It doesn't have to be money.

I'm with you 100%. No, no, 100 % with you. What I'm saying here is that if this experiment taught these students at a young age, when you go help people or do something purposeful for your community or for others, you're going to feel great. And they go, wow, I do feel great. I'd like to repeat this, but without the money. The message they get is I did something for my community or for others and I felt great.

Yeah.

I remember once telling Denis and my wife that, you know, I said, sometimes I feel like I have a sign on my head that says, you know, ask me for help. And she used to laugh and say, it's because that's what you wanted to do. You wanted to help a lot of people. You basically asked God for help to do that. that's he's going to give it to you in spades, which I'm not complaining. I love it. Right. I absolutely love it. The fact I have a chance first as a physician for many, many years in a professional situation. But now, you know, in the other things I do, I love being able to help other people any way I can. And I am certainly not unique. Most people will feel great when they help somebody else. You know, if you ask somebody for you know, directions or help with a project. I mean, they always want to jump in and help you with something, give you their advice. They love that because people instinctively know this. I don't know where this comes from. This comes just like either, you know, people who are religious would call it a divine seed that's inside of us. But wherever this comes from, you don't have to teach people this. They get it. Once they experience it, they get it. Wow. Helping somebody else made me feel great. That's fantastic. And in our society now where we have the social media issues, people scrolling on their phones day and night, not just kids, by the way, adults too, I see it all the time. That's never gonna make them happy. I don't know if you've ever done this, but I don't use Instagram, I don't use social media, which is probably why if we did, we'd probably have a whole lot more people listening to our podcast. But it's not something I'm interested in.

Yeah.

but I have on occasion opened up Instagram. I'm sorry, I should say I've posted things to Instagram about our podcast. So I sort of know how to use it a little bit, but I don't spend time scrolling through it. So about a month ago or so, I got curious as to what is it about Instagram that gets people so absorbed. So I opened it up and I don't know how my feed got to be what my feed is, but I started seeing things and... I'm scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. Just interesting what's going on here. I got a lot of movies. I don't know why they were showing me a lot of movies. I don't go to lot of movies a lot, but I got a lot of movies. What else did I get? got golf things. I must have had somewhere, they knew I played a little golf, although not a big time golf. Everybody got golf things. And I got some rich... people in Monaco, especially pretty women getting out of fancy cars. I don't know where that one came from. And all of sudden it's like 20 minutes later. And I went, I get it. And I'll tell you, I did not like the fact that I spent that much time doing that. You me, I don't like to waste my time and that's why I don't watch a lot of television, but.

Hmm.

It's like, holy, now I get it, right? Now I see what's going on with people that get addicted to this. I watched a video this morning of somebody sent me, a friend of mine sent me about Tristan Harris. He's the head of the Center for Humane Technology. He wrote... He wrote a book, he did a TV special a few years ago about social media. I forget the name, it's very famous, you'd think I'd remember the name. It's not called The Scourge of Social Media, but that's basically what it's about. And he was being interviewed by Jon Stewart. So it was funny also, right? And he's going on about AI. the problem with AI poses a tremendous threat to us because it removes in many ways our ability to accomplish things.

Mm-hmm.

and to help other people in this sense, help them accomplish things. Because the AI is doing all of it. What are we going to do? What are people going to do? And when you say, well, don't worry. We'll take away all the menial jobs, and you can just sit around and eat popcorn and watch streaming series. Well, you're not doing us any favors, folks, by doing that. You're not doing the society any favors. You're not doing the individual any favors. Leisure like that is a killer. People will get fat. They will get sick.

Right, sure.

They will get old fast, they will commit suicide, they may harm others. No good will come with this. People need accomplishments to develop that persona we talked about, to become a person of substance. Accomplishments is one of the two cornerstones of happiness, the other being our interpersonal relationships, especially aiding other people. You take those away and you've got nothing. You have a society that is in free fall and will not last. So this AI stuff, I'm all for it in sense of helping physicians make better diagnosis, drugs, better drugs quicker and faster, solving problems like climate change or energy. It's going to help tremendously in a lot of these areas, developing vaccines, all these things. But It's super duper, duper dangerous, not only because, quote, it could kill us, which I believe it actually could, but because it's going to ruin us. We need to work. What is work? Work is the method by which we, for many of us, which we accrue accomplishments through our work. Most of it's that. So we also get a lot of our accomplishments. That generates self-esteem. That generates happiness. You take that away. my God, what do you got? Nothing. You got danger, danger, danger for the individual and for the society. you know, I have conversations with a lot of my very tech savvy friends, many years younger than me. And they say, oh, no, you don't get it. This is going to be great. We have to do this, blah, blah, blah. I go, it's not going to be great. It's going to be great about a few things, but had its potential to destroy us as individuals and our society.

It's interesting. think some sometimes it's us oldsters who are leery of AI and younger people are not. Maybe it's because we're not savvy enough. I want to mention another thing that's in the article I found fascinating. He said that 20 odd academic centers have sprung up with names such as the Happiness Lab, the Human Flourishing Program, and the Science of Happiness Project. Universities are having courses in happiness. Wow.

You

That's kind of interesting. Nobody talked to me about being happy when I was in school.

Well You know, I think the most popular or one of the most popular courses at Harvard Business School is Arthur Brooks' course. Now, when you listen to Arthur Brooks, he'll come right back to this point, right? He's a pretty savvy guy. I mean, he's a showman, he's a salesman, he's very good, slick, but he's very smart. And he comes back to this, you know, got to have meaning and purpose and it comes from accomplishings and helping other people. So I'm all in on him. I've never met him. I'd like to meet him, but...

Yes, yes indeed. Yes.

That course is a good course. Other courses, I can't comment on them, I haven't seen them, but this is like a 10 minute course. You can say, here, guess what folks, you want to feel good? Go help somebody else. Just watch what happens. That's it. Class is over, go out and do something.

Yeah.

So let's go back. So let's pretend now that you're the professor and you're going to do something on campus, but you don't have the money to give to the students to go out and say, here, go do something good. What would you do? What would you tell students to do in order to find, their purpose, or B, happiness? And that's another question. Is purpose and happiness, you can't have one without the other, can you? Or can you?

I don't think you can have long-term happiness for that purpose and meaning. don't. But it turns out, you know, I teach other doctors a particular procedure that I do. And I do this under the auspices of the American College of Radiology, which is the umbrella organization for radiologists throughout the country. Just like the American College of Cardiology, the American College of Surgeons, same thing. Every specialty has their...

Yes.

association, you have to pass your boards to be able to be admitted to that. all special, know, how can I put this? So, to be a member of any of these associations, you have to have passed your specialty boards and become a recognized member. you know, most of us who do fellowships, we take our boards, we get specialized in something, and there you go. So, I teach a course on how to do a certain kind of colon cancer screening for this. I've been doing it now for about 15, 18 years, and I love it. And I'm teaching them how to do this procedure that is time consuming, is not particularly easy to learn, and they're not going to make a lot of money doing it. So what do do when I teach them? The first thing I tell them, and I just did this last week, I had a course last week. I said, I start the course by saying, Look, I just want to tell you my gratitude that you are all here willing to learn this procedure. Because of all the things I've done in my career in medicine, you're going to find this interesting. This particular test, this particular procedure, will have had the greatest impact on the most number of patients in the long run. and they look at me and I go, because this is gonna save lives. You are absolutely 100 % gonna save lives as you do this. And I know it's gonna take time and I know you're gonna have to learn this, but I applaud you for being willing do this because together, we're going to change the paradigm of how we screen for colon cancer and we're gonna save thousands of lives, especially among younger people. And that's gonna make you feel great. You are going to feel like a million dollars when you do this. And you're not going to care one bit how much you get reimbursed by Medicare or UnitedHealth or Blue Cross Blue Shield. You're not going to care. You're going to feel great. So these aren't high school or college students. These are doctors who've been in practice. Some are just finishing. Some are young. Some are just finishing their fellowships. And some are in their 60s. So it's a wide, wide range. Most of them been in practice a while. But that's what I tell them. It's the same thing I would tell a high school student or a college student.

You do this not for the fame, not for the fortune. You do this because it's going to make you feel great. This is what I told the people who worked for me in my practice. So as you know, I ran a, I was in charge of one of our offices, our largest office for medical practice here in the Washington DC area for, I don't know, 30 years, something like that. Had 60 people working with me. interesting enough, think 56 or more women, just the way it worked out. And I would have this, I would have monthly meetings with them where my office, the person running the office, the administrative lead and I would, you know, go through all the stuff that we had to do for the office, you know, how to make, you know, all the logistical stuff you do in an office that sees 250, 300 patients a day to make it run smoothly. And they always knew they were going to get a little mini

Good.

Let's call it what it is at the end. And I would say, look, the reason I want you to do a great job is not for me. And I don't want you to it because of the practice. And I don't even want you to do it for the patients, although they're the most important thing by far. I want you to do it for yourselves because when you get a patient who walks in front of you and is clearly nervous and you look up at that person and say, welcome, how can I help you? And they have a problem and you make their problem your problem and you take that stress off their shoulders. Remember, this is a medical office. People are worried. They didn't come here for lunch, right? They came here because something's possibly wrong, right? And they're all scared. So when you take that person's... fear and put it on your shoulders, that they're concerned to put it on your shoulders, you're going to see that person's face light up and you are going to feel like a million dollars. So you might think that I'm the most important person in this office because I'm the doctor and I see the patients. had six or seven other doctors with me every day. But just using that as an example, that I'm the most important person and the front desk people who are answering the phones and greeting the patients are at the bottom of the rung. It doesn't work that way. We are all in this together. And I mean this 100%. If the person at the front desk is rude or disrespectful or sloughs off the patient, then we're doomed. We have not done that patient a favor and that patient is going to have just an unpleasant experience the whole way. Whereas if you start out and make that person comfortable and let them know that you're on their side and you'll take their burden off their shoulders as best you can, and you'll see to it that they have a great experience, then when they get to technologists and the nurse and me, then we all have to do our jobs, but yours isn't any less important. These are all equally important. And they, you know, after hearing me say this for years, they all know that I mean it and that it's true. But the reason I wanted to do this was because I'm telling them, I said, I'm more concerned about you.

All 60 of you, I want you to have fulfilling, rewarding, happy, successful, meaningful lives. And the way you're going to do that is by doing all you can every day to help as many patients as you can in any way you can. You are going to walk out of here with your head high, feeling like I'm important, I'm valuable, I've helped people. And that's the reason you should do it. So it's the same lecture, whether it's a high school student, a college student, an office worker in her 30s or 40s or... or a bunch of radiologists sitting in front of me their middle of their careers. It doesn't matter. The story doesn't change.

So I have two questions. Number one, can your purpose be something outside of work? In other words, I'm doing something during the day, this is what I do for a living, but it's not necessarily my purpose. That's number one. And number two, can you find your purpose at a later time in life?

Let's take question number two, because I can remember it. Because you just said, yes, of course you can do it at any age. There's no time limit, right? The sooner the better. But hey, I told you many times, I'm not the fastest kid on the block here. I mean, it took me a long time to learn all these things. And I wish I had learned them earlier, but at least I got them in time to have made a significant difference in my life and hopefully in the lives of many other people. Now, in terms of your job, your purpose,

Yeah.

Your purpose or what I like to call your mission is always the same. It's the same at work. It's the same when you're at home with your family and friends. It's the same when you're in your community doing whatever it is you do in your community. You know, I coached a lot of kids soccer teams and roller hockey teams. know, my mission was always the same. It doesn't matter how old the constituency or where you are at work is always the same. Right. What is it? Evolve from selfish to selfless, from inward focus to outward focused. That's the key. And that's what Dana Milbank was, you know, I don't know you know much about Dana Milbank. He switched his focus from the Washington Post and politics where he was quite aggressive, I would say, to all of a sudden this more of a nature-based, humanity-based folks. He's still writing for them.

Right.

Yeah, he moved. He actually moved out into the country.

Yeah, I actually read that afterwards that he's moved to Shenandoah. But and you read in this article, he clearly had an epiphany, right? So you say how and I don't know how old he is. He's not he's not super young, but but he had an epiphany. Is it too old? No, it's never too old. But your mission is always the same every day of your life is to do what you can. Now, if you're a job like you or me, you run a nonprofit that's focused on feeding

Mm-hmm, yes he did.

hungry people, especially elderly people. So that's your job every day. Your mission and your job are the same thing. You're helping other people. As a doctor, it's the same. Okay. So good. He's got plenty of time, hopefully. That's great. I'm happy for him. Very happy for him. Seriously, you know I mean that, right? I am very happy for him because I know his life is going to be so much more peaceful from the stuff that he wrote about hating on the opposition, which cannot make you happy.

I just go, he's 57 years old.

Yes he does.

I do? Yes, certainly.

to finding something that I'm sure is making him extremely happy. So I am super happy for him. And I lost my other train of thought. So let's move on.

Well, I'll let you know when it pulls into a station here. See what happens when you're old and I'm not old. I remember everything. Yeah, yeah.

No, no, this has happened to me my whole life. This has happened to me my whole life. It happens to a lot of people. I'll tell you a quick story, totally unrelated. I was at medical conference about the procedure I was telling you about, this colon cancer screening. And one of the foremost researchers, who's a much younger guy, really liked the guy, very smart. He's in the Midwest. I won't mention where he is or his name, but I have tremendous respect for this guy. I really like him. And we were at this conference and he got up to ask a question. Room is packed, right? And he stands at the microphone and completely loses his idea. He's young at this point, right? I'm going to guess he's in his 30s or something. And I watch him and I could just tell he wanted to crawl under a rock, right? because it's happened to everybody. It has nothing to do with age. It's a combination of anxiety or whatever it is. It gets you. And I just wanted to give this guy a hug. In fact, I did afterwards walk up to him and say, look, do not be embarrassed. not feel ashamed in any way. You are a tremendous doctor. You're a tremendous researcher. You've given so much. OK, you had a moment like everybody else has. You should just laugh about it.

sure.

What I really wanted to sort of said at the time was a number of years ago was that it's just another page in your book, right? It's just another story in your book. It's going to complete who you are. You can look back and you'll laugh about it. It's just way it is.

Yeah, right, right, right, yeah.

It reminds me of an article I read this morning in the New York Times about the great baseball player Kirk Gibson. I don't know if anybody remembers him, but he had quite heroics. That's well, that's right. He had hurt his leg and still came into as a pinch hitter and hit the home run. It was an amazing story. But what's most amazing about him is and that was, think, 40 years ago. I think it is. Look it up. Look it up. Yeah. It's a long time ago.

Of course. One leg at home, red, right? One leg at home, run.

No, it is not 40 years ago. Get out of here. Come on, I cannot be. I thought it was last Thursday. No? Okay. Okay.

It no, it's actually last Tuesday, but who's counting? But ironically, he now suffers from Parkinson's disease. And it has changed his life. And while once his purpose was to hit those home runs, now his purpose is to make sure that people who have Parkinson's disease, as he does, are well taken care of. And he started this big McGill in...

yeah.

Michigan and it's fantastic. It's got, you can come and go boxing and it's all free to people who have Parkinson's. So I guess I answered my own question about does your purpose change and you evolve and he did and it's a good story. It's an amazing story and it's actually in the New York Times. It's just how we can, he went from inward focus because that's all he cared about in those, he was a nasty guy. When you read the story about him he was really kind of nasty but now he realized, whoops.

You know.

What was wrong with me? Why did I do that? So he changed from inward focus to outward. He probably read your book. He probably read your book.

So people who think that there's no story of a human life, that this is just a random chemistry experiment and blah, blah, blah, and there's no meaning and there's no overall message, they are just not. paying attention or they are trying as hard as they can not to pay attention. These stories are ubiquitous. They are everywhere. There are millions of Kirk Gibsons in one way or another. So the earlier we get it, the better. as long as you get it, remember, you're here for a limited time. I'm not sure you get extra points for catching on earlier than later. I don't know. I'm not the one making the decision here. But as long as you get it eventually,

Yes.

That's the key that you've made that evolution. Better to make it earlier. You'll have less stress in your life, which is why folks were doing this podcast. If you can catch on to this stuff, the aerial view earlier, you will have fewer days of angst, fewer days of anxiety, fewer days of stress, more days of meaning and purpose, and guess what? More happiness. It really is that simple. And that's what Kirk Gibson, look, he figured it out. Unfortunately, he had to get a disease to do it. I don't criticize him.

Yeah. No.

He did it. A lot of people get sick and get angry. They do nothing, right?

He hit the home run off a goose gassage to help the Detroit Tigers win in 1984. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, but you know what? It's astounding. mean, and you're right. Whatever it takes. Unfortunately, you're right. Unfortunately, it took illness to make him see the light, if you will, but.

Yikes. Well, the good news is I haven't lost my long term memory. That's a good thing, right? Yeah, but that.

And in our time, I'll finish up, I know we're short on time, but I will finish up to say that with all the political turmoil we're having, right, and all the stress people are under and the nasty reactions on both sides that they want to hurt other people on the other side or kill other people on other side, you know, read about Kirk Gibson, read this article in the Washington Post. Listen to podcasts like this one. Just understand you're missing the point. You're making your life

Yeah.

So much more difficult for yourself, for your family, for your friends, for your society. There is a better way. There is an answer out there. And it really is so simple. Evolve from the selfish to selfless, from inward to outward focus. Change the camera from a selfie to taking care of others. When times are tough, go help someone else. That's how we transform the world.

You're exactly right. will end with what they said again in this article. So much, this is a quote, so much of the pop psychology stuff is focus on yourself, focus on your own personal growth, focus on your needs, focus on your self-care, focus on you, you, you, says psychologist Kendall Cotton-Bronk of Claremont Graduate University. Instead, she argued, the real path to happiness is focusing on others, on how you can contribute to others and their wellbeing. What we need to be focusing on is contributing in meaningful ways and often that will lead to the happiness that you're seeking. And with that, I'll give you the final word and say thank you for this great conversation. You'll have the last words.

My last word is amen. She's right. It's not that hard. Right.

She's, it's not that hard. Thank you. We look forward to next week doing this yet again and tell everybody where they can write to us again.

question at wisdom from the area of view.com. And we'd to hear from you. Thank you all for listening. Thank you, Enid, for another terrific conversation, and we'll see you all next time. Thanks. Bye bye.

Thank you, doc. Feel better. He's got a cold. Bye bye.