Episode 45: Consciousness

Welcome to wisdom from the area of view the podcast of those who wish to learn how to crush their anxiety and find meaning and purpose in their lives Today's podcast is gonna be a little bit different Because we need to be honest with the folks. We just did a podcast About time and that the world is not what you think it is and that all time is happening at the same time as in its contemporary It's it's terrific. It was terrific the jukebox of time and all the records are going and they're playing at the same time and that that The conversations that we had with our parents a long time ago are still going on. And that to me is actually kind of nice. I miss my parents. I'd like to talk to them. Sometimes I do. I will tell you a little secret about me, Dr. Mark Klein. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Sometimes when I'm really a little bit down, I'll get in my car when there's nobody around and I talk to my mother. Kind of crazy. Crazy as still that she doesn't answer back, but I do that. That's my conscious mind, I guess, talking to my mother. At the end of the podcast, you said something about, want to talk about in a future podcast about consciousness. And then I said, you know what, let's do it. I'm totally unprepared. And maybe you are too, except you thought a lot about it. I haven't. and I said, you know what, let's just do it. Let's talk about consciousness. So what is it Dr. Mark Klein, author of the book, wisdom from the early view, the superpower that can change your life in this world. What is it about consciousness that you really want to talk about?

Hello, Enid. Great to see you. There's so many things, there's so many ways we can go with this. And I think we should just, I think this is kind of fun because usually, by the way, Enid is always well prepared. She's a true professional in everything she does. And so she really sits down at a microphone without knowing what she's going to talk about.

Hello.

Whereas I'm, yeah, which is I'm not quite as disciplined as she is. And in all fairness, since we're spending most of our, this podcast on stuff that I've written and thought about a long time, I do have a distinct advantage. So, but this time we're both at an equal disadvantage, but I think it'll make it fun. Just, let me just start with what you're saying about driving around talking to your mother. So it's not weird at all. I'm going to guess that I'll pick a number. 75 % of people on this planet talk to their,

This is true.

deceased family members at some point or another. think it's quite natural. But here's the cool thing about it. So when we do that, we assume we're talking to somebody who's no longer here. Right there. Clearly, we can't pick up the phone. I think I've told you sometimes I just get this urge to call my mother as if I can. I forget that I can't. And I said, oh, I'm going to call my mother and tell her this. And of course, she's been gone a long time. I can't do that. But it tells us something about There's something in our heads that we don't really appreciate because what I'm getting at is that we have a sense of the existence of life after it leaves this earth. So there are people who are religious who believe in the hereafter or heaven, hell, whatever. But even if you don't have a religion, There's this instinctual sense in us that we can in some way communicate with those who are no longer here. I don't mean a seance or something like that. I mean, we just feel it. We feel the connection. We've talked about connections on this podcast before in an earlier episode. We can probably revisit it at some point because it's so interesting. But we have this sense. And where does that come from? Well. I can't give you the answer, we talked about last time how the world is not what we think. There are things that we don't understand about life and death and what happens before and what happens after. These are really strange concepts and it leads us to the concept of consciousness. Because what consciousness has in common with those ideas of pre-life, post-life, whatever, is that nobody understands it. So you would think here we are in the year 2025 with all these tremendous scientific advancements, incredible computing power, AI, et cetera, et We'd have a better idea what consciousness is. So if somebody tells you they know what consciousness is, you should smile and be very polite, but in the back of your mind going, this person really doesn't know what they're talking about because nobody knows, right? They may be right, but equally could be wrong. Nobody really knows. But I think about consciousness in...

a lot because I have to make it fit into the things that I do know about how the world works. We talked a lot about aging and about...

Tell me your definition before we go on. me your definition. Before we go on, we're talking about consciousness. Let's set the ground rules. What is your definition of consciousness? What are we talking about?

So you're the definition woman, could usually come in here and go, I looked it up and then the cyclic career Britannica or someplace else, Oxford English, Oxford, what's called, Oxford English, OE, what's that?

Right, but I didn't have time to look this up. Yeah.

Yes.

You know, addiction, right. we do Oxford English Dictionary. think that's what it is, right. You usually come in with that you're usually prepared with this, today you're not. So so I don't know what the definitive quote, not definitive, what a legitimate or accepted definition of consciousness is. But it's kind of like pornography. You know, know, when you see it, right, you're awake, you know what's going on. have you have a mind that's that's thinking, reacting in the moment, able to to process memories.

Mm-hmm.

Just being aware of what's going on. Okay, okay. Okay, okay.

Yeah, all the things that our brains do, right? We recall memories, we process current information, we make decisions, we evaluate what our senses are telling us. This is all consciousness, right? So I'm not a neuroscientist, and I'm sure there's neuroscientists out there who can give us some great definitions. But you know what we could do? This is kind of fun. Just so that we don't fall off the wagon here, we could ask Chatchie P.T. Let's do that.

Okay. Well, I am, so.

All right.

Can you give me a definition of consciousness? And let's see what it says. It says, drum roll please. that's a profound question. One that philosophers, neuroscientists, psychologists have wrestled with for centuries. There isn't a single university accepted definition, but here's a concise synthesis that captures the main perspectives.

See there.

Consciousness is a state of quality of being aware of and able to think about one's own existence, sensations, thoughts and surroundings. So I think we covered it pretty well. We did pretty well. Okay, so we like to talk about aging or the advancement of time or moving through our lives. know that's obviously you deal with the elderly every single day. So you're quite familiar with aging and that process.

Okay, good.

And so does your wife.

Very good, excellent. You're scoring at home, that's a big, we're gonna give her two points. That's a two pointer for Enid, right? At any rate, so we think about aging and moving along in life, but.

Okay.

But we think about that in terms of our bodies. We don't think about that in terms of our minds. So yeah, we know more than we did before, or we knew more about some things we've forgotten a lot, whatever. But we don't look at our minds the same way we look at our, you know, like our limbs or our joints or our hair or lack of hair. We don't look at it that way. It's a different entity. So what is actually going on? So if you believe in a soul, which many people do, that there's a difference between the mind and the body, even though they work together for sure, sure. They definitely are related. I like to say your mind and your body do work together, but they're not necessarily the best of friends, right? So, they are, there is a sense that they are, even though they're related, they are distinct entities. Because if our brains were in charge of our bodies, we wouldn't have pain, we wouldn't get, you know, be unable to run as fast as we could or do the things we could. I'm kind of joking, but we recognize them as distinct in some ways, at least, right? So what's happening as you move from, you know, you're the three year old, you know, at preschool to where we are now and our bodies clearly, if we took sequential pictures and just, and you know, we do that all the time. Now that we take pictures ubiquitously, if you go back on your phone, for instance, the first image I have on my phone is from the year 2000. So that's 25 years ago. And I see pictures of me 25 years ago and I don't look exactly the same. I had... I had a little more hair and it certainly wasn't the color it is now. I more wrinkles and etc. etc. But what about my brain? What about my consciousness? What happened to my consciousness?

It's still going. I'm still appreciating, according to that definition, I'm still aware. I'm still evaluating this information coming from my five senses. And I'm still doing all these things. So what exactly is this thing that's floating in a sense from one age to another, from one moment to the other? So if you look at, if you lined up pictures of your body for the last 25 years, we'll take that as an arbitrary number, and you watch the changes in your body, and then what's been happening in your consciousness since that time? You would say, well, it's made a lot of decisions, it's evaluated things, it's observed things, but it's really not a whole lot different. It has more experiences in it. Maybe it forgot a few things, maybe the memories aren't as good, new memories were made. But basically, the thing that we call consciousness hasn't really changed all that much during that time. What's going on? So the image that I've had recently in my head, this is totally a scientific. This is based on nothing other than trying to figure this out. Because, you know, I spent a lot of time thinking about crazy things like this. Imagine as if your brain or your consciousness, let's let's leave brain out of this, because I think brain and consciousness are different. Now, most neuroscience would say, no, no, you can't differentiate consciousness and brain, but I'm going to differentiate them. And I

Yeah, I do too.

Don't have good scientific reasons to do this, but just humor me for a little bit. Let's just call them something different. Let's leave the brain as part of the body and consciousness as something else. You can call it the soul. I don't really care what you call it, but let's call it something else. Now imagine if you lined up those pictures of 25 years of your body changing. You wouldn't notice it from one minute to the next or one day from the next, but over the course of months, you made a little change and then a couple of years you notice the change and... Wow, it's a pretty big change over 25 years, right? What's this thing called consciousness? So I'm now imagining it in a sense of something that is moving in some type of medium outside the body that is continually moving from picture to picture to picture. So you got the pictures lined up. Now we have something called our consciousness, our soul, whatever you want to call it. and I'm going to just use those interchangeably because it's just easy. Imagine that invisibly gliding through the images of your body. It's just moving from one to the next to the next to the next to the next. It's just moving right through them like this invisible entity that has neither form nor substance nor mass. It's just This thing that I can't describe, I can't put my hands around, I can't contain, but it is moving through from picture to picture to picture over those 25 years, or in fact, over our entire lives. So let's just stick to these 25 years of pictures, right? This is a fascinating idea. because it cannot be the same as your body. It is not going through the same aging process. It's different. It's a different process. And in fact, your consciousness, unless you've had a serious brain injury or serious illness or dementia, and we will talk about that a little bit today also, because I find that equally fascinating. We have mentioned it before, but we're going to stick to that. We're going to incorporate this because the whole thing is so cool. Let me digress as I often do.

Dementia.

Yes.

You know that I've become an iconoclast. I no longer pay any attention to conventional wisdom. I no longer take what anybody says no matter who it is at the highest levels, no matter how expert they are. I don't care who they are. I respect everybody, but I don't take anything at face value anymore about anything. Why? Why have I become this iconoclast? I used to always color in the lines. Why? because I've learned that conventional wisdom eventually will almost always turn out to be wrong, that there are too many things we don't understand about the world. You and I have talked about facts. Facts and science have changed. The great one was the one we talked about in a previous episode that Isaac Newton said there was a clockwork universe. There was a universal clock that ticked off the same for everybody. He did that in the 1600s. And it wasn't until 400 years later that, sorry, 300 years later that Einstein said, oh, guess what? That's wrong. fact of science that fact of a universe is wrong and there so many of those in science so so many not just in physics of all things physics you would think physics is set in stone in the year nineteen eighteen ninety-nine or something in that time period most physicists thought there wasn't a lot left to discover we had to clean up some loose ends a couple things we really didn't get there were some problems I don't want to minimize it but we covered most of it well it turns out we didn't cover any of it right

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right. So that's the point. So that's why I'm at Conocless. That's why when it comes to consciousness, when it comes to the things we talk about in this podcast, I'm not trying to sell anybody anything. I'm just trying to say, keep your open mind. Understand we know very little about how the world works and about how our lives work and what it all means. So you need to keep an open mind. This idea of consciousness. What does it mean? What is it? This consciousness, this soul, what is it? Is it a distinct entity? Well, I'm convinced it is. And people would say to me, Well, if you have a stroke or other kind of brain injury, well, there goes your consciousness to a large degree, right? And I would say, who says, right? And I'm a science guy, right? I've done, I've viewed thousands and thousands of MRIs and CTs of the brain, right? I'm a science guy, right? This is what I did.

Maybe.

And I go, well, okay, that's nice, but it doesn't tell you what's behind that. the brain controls our body, our senses, our motor ability.

The mind-body connection.

Yes, we need a brain to run the show. It's the computer that runs the show. If the computer goes bad, you can't speak, you might lose memories, can't communicate appropriately, you can't move, whatever. It doesn't mean this thing that's conscious or the soul is impaired. It means that it can't be expressed. Now, perhaps it is true that the brain and consciousness are the same and therefore, no, I'm wrong. Consciousness is the brain and therefore it is It is injured when we have a stroke and it is affected by by any kind of intracranial problem, etc. But I'm beginning to believe it's not. And the reason I'm beginning to believe it's not is because all the clues we've talked about over and even things like near death experiences where so many people say, well, I'm floating above the bed and I can hear the doctors talking, you know, this is old news, this is nothing new, right? You take all the clues together and all the things we've talked about in this podcast and it is perfectly possible. I'm not trying to sell anybody anything and I don't want people to think I'm not that I'm this crazy mad person who has decided science is wrong. No, science is incomplete. It's not wrong. It's incomplete. And so we don't understand consciousness and they probably don't understand it for a reason because it's probably in some ways outside at least part of the realm of the science that we can actually decipher. So when somebody has dementia, for instance, we know it's very sad. We watch this person struggle to function in the world. watch the people who love this person struggle. We watch these people who try and take care of this, care for this person struggle. I am not minimizing any of this. It is difficult for everybody involved. But it doesn't mean that that consciousness is impaired or gone or not. or not still involved in this in the human being we see in front of us. It doesn't mean that. We don't know. We can't we can't evaluate what we don't understand. We don't have the tools for it yet. Now, perhaps in the next 10, 20, 100 years, we will. And everything I'm saying now proven to be false. It's totally possible. But

Right now from what I've learned in medicine and what I've seen in my life and the things we've talked about, I'm very skeptical. I do have this sense that their consciousness is something else. That this idea of a soul that's been around since the dawn of time, certainly in every religion, in one form or another, there's something to it. I can't explain it. Again, I'm not trying to sell anybody anything, but I do think there's something to it. And the way I like to look at it now, I've been forced to look at it, not that I want to look at it, is I look at this formless, massless entity moving through the images of our body over our lifespans. The body changes. It's very visible, especially year to year, decade to decade, very visible. Moment to moment, not so easy. The changes are occurring. We just can't appreciate it. But over months and certainly years we can. But that thing that we call consciousness, that's not changing the same way. That's not going through the same process. Something else is happening. And so that's why even though the mind and body, yes, they are absolutely 100 % connected in some ways. They're not the same. There's something else.

You know, it's interesting. There was an article in this morning's Washington Post, and it's about a chorus for folks who have Alzheimer's. And these are all, I guess in some assisted living facility, they have Alzheimer's, and they decided to start a chorus. And it's a chorus of them and their caretakers or their husband and wives, whatever. And one of the husbands said something interesting when I was reading the column this morning. He said, my wife, who is very much into the throes of dementia, doesn't remember what she had for breakfast, but there's not one lyric that she doesn't remember. She remembers everything from the past. So it's her conscious mind, maybe, and I was reading and thinking, well, maybe what she had for breakfast is so unimportant that it didn't matter, that she's conscious of what was important, the things in her life that were important. So maybe while her outward body has changed and even the short term, memory of our mind, but the longer term memory of her is still there. Her conscious mind is still there. It's just in a different place than where we expect it to be.

Well, let's talk about three different elements here. One is short term memory and long term memory are not stored in the same place in the brain. So it's certainly what happens is certain areas in dementia are affected differently than other areas. So it's perfectly, we see a lot of people have short term memory loss and the long term memories are fantastically intact. Okay, so that's entity one, short term memory, entity two, long term memory, and then there's the third component.

Right.

Correct. Right.

which is the part that we can't see, which is really what we're talking about, the essence of the human being, the consciousness. So where does that fit in? It's different than the memories. It's different than short-term and long-term. It's something else. It's this sense of who we are. It's again, formless, massless, invisible. It's consciousness, it's soul. We don't know what it is, right? And I am...

That's right. Right.

more sold than ever that this is a separate entity, that it's not short-term memory or long-term memory. It's not motor, it's not sensory, it's not the actual mechanical fibers and the neurons in the brain. It's something else. Now, I can't prove it. Someday I may be proving completely wrong. Someday, 20, 50 years from now, somebody might pull up this podcast and start laughing and think this dodo thought he was onto something and he was completely wrong. It's all easily explainable now in science. And if that happens, fine. It's not first I'll have been wrong. I don't think so right now and knowing what I know. If you pushed me, I'm going to end up on the side of this formless, massless thing that we call consciousness or soul that we can't explain. I think it's an individual entity. And I said moving, it moves through our bodies as we age from one moment to the next. That's why I like this image of lining up pictures of yourself over 25 years. And you clearly see the difference in you from from those moments. look at the first picture and then twenty-fifths of the last picture and you don't look the same, right? Nobody does. Some people look better than others, but everybody looks different, right? But that thing that we call consciousness, that hasn't changed that much. It has. It's changed a little. It's been affected by things that have happened in our lives, in our world and so on. But the idea of who we are, that consciousness, that hasn't aged 25 years. That's still... The essence of it is really still pretty much the same. How is that? It can't be the same as the brain and all the other physical parts of our body. cannot be the same. Something else is going on inexplicable at the moment. Perhaps it will always be inexplicable. I don't know. Maybe when we leave this earth, we run into God and God says, yeah, yeah, I can explain that to you. Here's what it really is. Yeah, you were right. It's your soul. Isn't that great? So, yeah, right. And by the way, here's your grade for how you did in your life.

Boom. Yeah, but why do you say, I guess my question for you is, obviously when I look at pictures for 25 years, it has changed, everything changes, but you say that the consciousness hasn't. Well, how do you know it hasn't?

Well, I didn't say it hasn't. I said it hasn't changed the same as the rest of your body, right?

How do you know that?

Okay, that's a fair question. What I'm saying is the sense of who we are and that you are Enid Borden, that's not... You were Enid Borden 25 years ago. Now you have different opinions, have different facts in your life, different memories, different experiences, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the Enid Borden part, who you are, that sense of who I am when you wake up in the morning and you open your eyes and you go, oh, I'm Enid Borden, I'm still here, right? That hasn't evolved.

Okay, right. What?

Yeah.

in the same way as your body has evolved. You it's not, your consciousness hasn't gotten gray hair. You don't have gray hair, I do, but you know what I'm saying? It's different, the evolution is different. It's not the same. I'm not saying it hasn't changed at all. It changes based on your experiences and what goes on in your world and so on, but the essence of who you are has not changed the same as your body. Your consciousness is not obviously 25 years older. It's not creaky. It's not, you know, having trouble, you know, expressing itself in that sense, that sense of who you are has not evolved the same as your body. It's a different entity. I'm not saying it doesn't change or get molded in one way or another by experience. It does. But it's not the same as what's going on in your body. It's a different process. Something else is going on. It's not, quote, aging in the same way your body is.

See, and I take issue with that because I think it is changing. I think if it's an awareness about things, one would hope, one would pray that my awareness has really improved. That even the way I look at the world has changed. We were children of the 60s. What I thought about in those years, I don't think about now. I think I look at it more maturely. And maybe that's a question here. Where does maturity fit in? consciousness.

So I think you bring up an excellent point and I think part of the problem is that I am doing a lousy job expressing this concept that I have in my head and not articulating properly. So your body ages, right? All I'm saying is take your, whatever we call conscious, whatever this awareness is of who we are and so on, and we compare it to what our body's doing over time. They are not. The sense of who you are, the sense of Enid Borden. Yes, your opinions are changed, your maturity has changed, you see things differently, but the fact of who you are, this essence of who you are that has been molded by your experiences in life and so on. It's not aging the same way as your body is. It is morphing, but it's not linear. It's not like every day your body is aging. Every single day. And over that 25 pictures, those 25 years of pictures, you can see it, right? Our skin changes. I was with my grandchildren last weekend and the four-year-old looks under my neck and goes, hey, Pop, they call me Pop. What's that thing? Right? I go, I'm cracking up. He goes, how come I don't have one of that? I said, because you're four, right? Right? Right. And you know,

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, my great, yeah, the turkey thing, my, you know, my grandkids and I, have just have like most grand, we have this fantastic relationship. They know I love them. We have, we have a wonderful, wonderful relationship, all of them. And, you know, and of course kids will say anything to you, but, so he can see this, right? It's visible. If we look at our pictures, it's visible, but.

Yeah, the turkey. Yeah, turkey neck.

Show me how, paint a picture to me of your consciousness. You were Enid Borden. Yeah, Enid Borden with new experiences because you went through life, but you're still Enid Borden. In fact, I recognize you as Enid Borden. And if I didn't have a single picture of you and I just talked to you.

Yeah, yeah.

I can hear your voice. can hear not even your voice. I can hear you. I can hear the humor. I can hear your approach to life. I can hear your kindness and gentleness and your generosity. I hear all that. That's been around for years. It hasn't aged linearly like your body has. It's matured as you said. It's grown. It's expanded. Let's use the word expand. Your consciousness has expanded. Right. You appreciate more. You're aware more. you take in

Yes.

the outer external world in a different way perhaps when you do when you were 16, of course, but the essence of Enid Borden is still Enid Borden. It hasn't aged linearly like your body has. That's the point I'm trying to make. So there is something unique and different about consciousness or our soul, whatever you want to call it, different than our body. They are not the same thing. They don't, they're not one to one. know, every part of your body is aging at a similar rate, right?

I see.

Everybody give me an example. So I don't know if this has happened to you, but there's something called posterior vitreous detachment in your eye. The vitreous, which is the jelly part of these of the eyeball, it loses some of its elasticity because it literally gets dried out like the rest of us. It pulls away from from the back of the eye. You get these floaters that float around. You often get sharp, you know, bright lights in the periphery. So if you live long enough, everybody will get that. I think it's 100 percent will get that if they live long enough. Right. OK. It's an aging process. That's not happening to your consciousness. Your consciousness, in fact, is not aging, it's expanding, right? It's getting bigger. It's not losing its elasticity, it's gaining elasticity because it's now taken in so much more in terms of relationships and experiences and events. It's taken in so much more. So if you look at your consciousness like a balloon, you know, it was a little balloon when you were younger. Now it's a bigger balloon. It's going the opposite direction of your body. They are unrelated. They are not attached. They are not the same thing. There is something unique about consciousness that is relevant to our body. So yes, there's this bind body collaboration but if that's just that's really the brain and the body it's not the consciousness in the body they're different things consciousness to me is clearly I wouldn't say clearly because that's too dogmatic and I could be wrong but to me it appears very strongly to be an outside entity this formless massless thing that is moving through those pictures of you over 25 years and as it moves it's actually growing it's expanding so if we could see it it'd be bigger every single day you get it'll get larger, more voluminous, it would have more things in it. It's going in the opposite direction of your body. This is what I should have said earlier. It would have been much clearer. One thing is shrinking and one thing is growing. The consciousness is growing, the body shrinking. That's a better way to look at it. Consciousness is a different entity. It is fascinating. It is the essence of who we are. It's a super clue as to why we're here. If you tie it all together, this is what

points to the fact that there is purpose, that they are here for a reason. Since consciousness is growing, our body is the vehicle to carry it along. So you look at those 25 years of pictures, it's carrying along this consciousness with it. It's the vehicle, it's the method of transportation of getting that consciousness from when you were born all the way through to the end of your life and building this thing, this soul, this consciousness. And that's why I think when you asked about dimension, what happens to our brains, it doesn't mean that our is necessarily affected it's just not can't be expressed the way it was before. It doesn't mean it's not still there.

It'd be interesting to find out seriously, to delve into that. mean, when we look at someone who has brain injury or dementia or a stroke victim, we think that they've lost everything. But I guess your thesis is maybe not. Their consciousness is still there, right? Yeah, yeah.

No, maybe not. can't prove it. Yes, I believe it is. I believe I cannot prove it. We're trying to test something that is untestable, at least for now, and probably for a long time. We can't test it. I can't be dogmatic. I can't say, yes, I'm absolutely sure I'm right.

Yeah.

Yeah, but yeah, and in the process, we may be selling these folks short, may be underestimating what's really going on up there and,

So you probably did the same thing when my mother was on her last moments, because I know you were with mother, you were with your mother her last moments. You were in the hospital, I believe. My mother was home with me here and I stood next to her. She had been unconscious or certainly not arousable or responsive for about a day. And I just stood next to her and I just told her that she was the most wonderful mother and that I loved her and I thanked her for everything she did for me. Now,

Yes, yes I was.

I don't know if she heard a word of it. I have no idea. And most of us like to believe that they do, but there is a sense to me that that gets through. that's, know, the brain might not be working properly. Certainly the body is not working properly. It's on its last moments. But it doesn't mean that thing we call consciousness is no longer there or what we call or can refer to as soul. There's something else. And I don't know what it is. I just have watched this and thought about this and know, yes there's an advantage of being in medicine and understanding some of these things at a different level but these are unscientific or ascientific things that we can't test, we can't prove. Everything I've said today might be complete fiction. I really don't think so for the reasons I've elucidated but there is something different between consciousness, this thing that is constantly expanding in our bodies which is constantly contracting. You know, it's a fascinating conversation. again, I think it's a source of comfort, right? Just as long as that consciousness is increasing and expanding, which it is, you can't help it, it has to happen. Then we are making something of our lives up until the very last moment we're here.

Yes.

Those are wonderful last words and I appreciate them. And this was a good conversation because it was totally unscripted, not that whatever is scripted, it was just thoughtful, something to think about, continue to think about. And as I sit here shrinking and hopeful that my conscious is expanding, my waist might be expanding, I'm not sure about that, but I thank you for this conversation. one of the things we need to do, I forget we had one of our listeners said,

Ha

Thank you for this conversation. great.

Tell us where we're supposed to write in. Can you do that?

Yes, questions, question at wisdomfromtheaerialview.com. Question at wisdomfromtheaerialview.com. So we'd love to hear from you. Thanks very much for listening. Ian, thank you for another great conversation. You're the best. And everybody, thanks again. We'll speak to you soon. Bye bye.

Thank you.

Appreciate it. Peace.