Episode 40: Honesty and Integrity

Welcome to wisdom from the aerial view, the podcast for those who wish to learn how to crush their anxiety and find meaning and purpose in their lives. Good morning, good afternoon. Dr. Klein, Mark, how are you?

I'm great at it, how are you?

I am okay. We are doing this podcast today on a day after some somber news, which we decided that we're not going to go into at great depth today. was the 24th anniversary of 9-11. And we also had a murder in this country. And it just goes on and on and on. But today we're going to do something different. We're going to talk about a chapter in your book. And let me give a plug for the book, Wisdom from the Aerial View, the superpower that can change your life and this world. And you have a chapter in the book called Honesty and Integrity. And what better day to talk about honesty and integrity than every day. But let me read a paragraph from your book, which I really like. You said, we bend, ignore, and sometimes vilify the truth, often to advance an agenda. as if the truth is a disposable, valueless commodity. In the right setting, people will accept any lie, no matter how absurd, if it fits their purpose and promotes their desired narrative. When this is permitted and encouraged, few actions in this world are more dangerous. Too many times in history, we have witnessed violence result as vicious lies replaced truth. I guess it is kind of fitting to be talking about this and and these kinds of things on a day like this. So you wrote that a while ago. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about bending the truth and vilifying the truth and honesty and integrity. Have at it, doc.

Yeah, it is actually funny because we weren't going to talk about the events of the recent days. Again, we're recording this the really immediately after the suspect who murdered Charlie Kirk was arrested. So this is quite fresh. we decided to not focus on that. And yet you realize that it's almost unavoidable when you're talking about honesty and integrity and vilifying the truth. So we've talked about this before. know, truth is a tricky matter. But when you say something that you know personally is untrue, that's what we're talking about. So we can argue about whether some historical incident or some opinion, some policy, whatever is truth or not. But when you know you're bending the truth, that's what we're talking about. Rather than truth as an absolute. Because that's a very difficult we talked about facts before you and I had a discussion about that. You tried to hit me with a frying pan, but you did miss. But with truth, I'm talking about is the truth when you know you're saying something that's untrue. That's what we're talking about. So why is this? Why am I so concerned about this? And why should I think we should all be concerned about this? You know, it's really funny in it. So.

I know I missed, but I felt good about it. Yes, yes, you might feel good about it.

We'll make up stories, all of us make up stories to hide something or whatever. And we know we're not telling the truth. And we've done it throughout our lives at different ages. And we tell these untruths, these falses, and we tell them as if we expect the person on the other end to believe it. Now, the person on the other end has also told numerous falsehoods and done the same thing. And they're thinking, this is BS. Right. And so, but we, but we act as if we're really fooling people when we can smell out falsehoods. So when we want to, when we want to smell out falsehoods. We can smell a mile away if somebody calls me and says, look, I'd like to come, you know, or my favorite is, you know, a service person is supposed to come to your house. And they call me go, look, we couldn't make it because our truck broke down.

Yeah, I know. Yeah.

So the highway would be littered with broken down trucks because that call is going out a thousand times a minute, right? To one place or another. So we get the recall, we go, oh yeah, right. OK, well, it couldn't come. Why don't you just tell me the truth? But fine, you don't say that. But you know the truck didn't break down. mean, once out of a hundred, the truck probably did break down. But most of the time, the trucks aren't breaking down. It's just their excuse. They couldn't make it for whatever reason. And of course, if that would happen and a company would call you and say, you know, we had you on our schedule. Here's what happened.

Exactly.

You know, the previous delivery got messed up. It was raining. It took a lot longer. Turns out that it woke up 17 flights of steps with a piano, whatever. You know, we'd much rather hear the truth than have somebody say, oh yeah, the truck broke down because we know we know it's not the truth most of the time. And yet when we do that and we do the same thing. The person on the other end of the call or standing in front of us or the end of the email, whatever, knows that we're making it up, right? So nobody's really fooling anybody or very few of us are fooling anybody once we're adults, right? We're not. No, that was the truth. That was the truth. do look. Now, what I was saying is because we're going to be posting video clips on YouTube, I thought I should put on a nicer shirt. And you always look great. You're always well dressed and, you know.

I know. Yeah. And wait a second. You just told me I look good today. Is it? Okay. Anyway, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Yes, I know. sure. Absolutely sure.

You are. It's a true statement, right? In fact, my wife said to me when I told her was going to do this, goes, well, you have to look better. know, Enid always looks fine. So it's like, yeah, which is true, right? So. Yeah, so but this isn't a falsehood. This is I'm looking at it right now. You're going to look great on a YouTube video. So me and Yelena from wearing a T-shirt now it's a good. So I put on a shirt. But anyway, getting back to the subject at hand. So we tell these untruths all the time.

The two of them are okay. Yeah, tell them I'll it.

And yet we are so good at sniffing it out when somebody else says it. And so you have to stop and think, you know, why do we tell these white lies or even lies? Okay, so there's a bunch of reasons, right? So maybe we promised somebody something and forgot. So I'll give you an example where I didn't do this. So we have an engineer who edits this podcast and he's fantastic and he's a great guy and he's very talented. And of course, he's going to be hearing this, I just realized. So it's probably a good idea. I'm saying all these nice things about it, but they're all true, right? They're all true. He knows that, right? So we were going to have coffee. were going to meet for coffee. I told you about this. we...

Right, right.

You know, he has little kids at home, so he doesn't have a lot of time to get away. He works, you know, nonstop. And so we made a plan to meet for coffee and it's now Sunday morning. I just finished working out or something. I forget I'm having a cup of coffee and I get a phone call from him and immediately I realize, my God, this is the morning we're supposed to be meeting. And I completely forgot. Now, at that point, I could have said, I'm so sorry something came up. There's been an emergency, a pipe broke. My son had called me with a problem or whatever. I could have made up a billion excuses or my truck broke down, right? Could have gone with the truck. I don't have a truck, but whatever. The point is that was an option. But of course, I didn't do that. I said, my God, I'm so sorry. And I've now thanked him about a hundred. I thanked him, apologized to him about a hundred times because it was so, you know, it was was an honest error.

you

You know, I usually put everything in my phone because I'm I have a terrible brain for remembering things and I didn't. I didn't put it in my phone. So if it's not my phone, then it's definitely out of my head. And so but I told him the truth because if I don't tell him the truth, two things are going to happen. One, I'm insulting him. And I like this guy. I'm insulting him. And here's the best part. The most important part of this whole conversation, I am. demeaning myself. Because honesty is really more about ourselves and what we think of ourselves than what we think of other people. So I've reached a point in my life, a while ago, not as early as I should have certainly, but a while ago, where I decided I'm not saying a single thing that isn't true. Now, if I have something to say that's true, but it's going to hurt somebody's feelings, I'm not going to say it. Right. I don't need to. You don't need to always say the truth. Silence is just OK sometimes. Like you've had this happen. In fact, we've had it at the same time. We'll see somebody from our high school and we look at him and our first reaction is, my God, this person looks like he's a hundred. Right. What happened? You know, but we don't say, my God, what?

Keep it to yourself. Yeah.

Yeah.

happened to you, right? We might even say something like, you look great, right? And that's okay. That's not the truth, but it's kind, right? And kindness is probably the most important thing we can exhibit. sometimes we don't have to say the truth. knowingly say something that isn't true, when you tell a lie, a falsehood,

That's right. Sure. Sure.

A, it's insulting to the person on the other end of that falsehood. And two, it is extremely demeaning to yourself. What you're saying to yourself is, I don't really think much of myself. I don't expect much of myself. I don't have a very high standard of myself. Now, we know people, I'm sorry, you wanted to say something, it looks like.

No, I was gonna say, and I agree all of this, it's true, but if you look at it in the larger context, these are personal quips, but if we look at it in the larger context in the political realm, we're not getting political except we are. When we're looking at people who, you and I just had a conversation before we got on the air about the governor of the state of Utah, who got in front of some cameras and told the truth. The truth was that we all have to get to come together as a country or the country collapses. He's telling the truth. So when we look to our political leaders, we look to any leader, we hope that those leaders will guide us out of the darkness and in so doing will tell us the truth. We find, we're finding ourselves, I believe, in a point and time right now where we're not getting the truth from the elected leaders or even the non-elected leaders. We're getting points of view that are mixing in truisms and falsehoods. How do we reconcile that? How do we reconcile the fact that we knew, we knew, that they weren't eating the cats and the dogs in Ohio, that, that, et cetera, et And yet that seems to permeate the ether. What do do about it?

this is an easy one for me. You just actually you probably didn't realize you just threw me a softball right over the middle of the plate. And that's what they do. That's what they do. It really we can't depend or should we depend on elected officials, leaders of any side? They they don't.

Okay.

Well, no, I did. actually playing for the Nationals and because they can't throw stuff. Yeah, that's it. They're playing softball and I like baseball. Yeah, good.

There is no excuse. We can't transfer the responsibility of how we behave to anybody else if, and we all know who you're referring to, but if the leaders, the highest leaders in the land or anybody starts telling, saying things that we believe are not true, or even we know they're not true, it doesn't change our own responsibility to be truthful for two reasons. One is we owe it to the person with whom we're talking and B, we're deciding how we feel about ourselves, we're expressing our own self-esteem. So one of the reasons to be honest, the most important reason to be honest in my view, is because that's how you become a person of substance. We've talked a lot on this podcast about becoming a person of substance, meaning to reach a level where you can then transfer that focus from yourself to other people, to aiding other people, to assisting other people, doing what you can to make their lives better and the world better. You can't do that effectively until you're a person of substance. I you can try, you can do it and you should do it, but you're not going to do it most efficaciously until you get there. One of the things to do to get there, to become a person of substance is to become an honest person, a person of integrity. So we all know people who... we would put them on a pedestal for his or her integrity. We know that this person is always honest and we can trust them. when we know people like that, we do put them on a pedestal appropriately. They're almost, I don't want to get carried away, but they're almost deified because they've reached a level that most of us don't get to. And so we have such a respect for them. Well, wouldn't you like to have the same respect for yourself as that person that you just put on that pedestal? Of course you would. Everybody would like to feel that way about themselves. How do you get there? Stop telling falsehoods. Tell the truth. Because when you tell the truth, it's liberating. It's freeing. So if I said to my friend, the engineer, that I couldn't get there because there was an emergency in my house, OK, what does that say about me? It says that I don't have enough faith in my own self to be able to say I made a mistake.

I forgot. I'm so sorry. When you do that, you elevate yourself. Your self-esteem goes up a notch, one notch higher. Every time you do that, one notch higher, your self-esteem goes up. That's what you want to do in this world. You want to be a person who has self-esteem, but you've earned it. You've earned it through your accomplishments. You've earned it through your honesty and through your integrity. These are critical so that then as you progress through your life, you feel like I'm getting there. I'm improving. I am becoming a person of substance. And then you have enough confidence to say, okay, now I have the ability to really maximize my utility to others. It's all part of that process. So honesty is about us. It's not about the other person. In some ways it is, I should say. It's an insult to the person to whom you're lying. But it's way more about yourself, about who you are and what you think of yourself as a human being.

Do you think there is such a thing as pathological liars? They almost can't control that whatever it is, can puncture to lie. Is there such a thing as that?

Well. There's all kinds of mental illness in this world. I'm not a psychiatrist. Although I think I've told you my most my favorite part of medical school was the three months I spent in psychiatry. That was fantastically interesting. So I'm sure the psychiatrist out there who would say, yeah, there are people who have this certain mental illness. You might call and you refer to it as pathological lying. I'm sure they have a lot of other pathology associated with that. You know, I'm sure serial killers are also pathological liars. So, yeah, I'm sure there's a subset. But, you know, we're talking about a very small percent of people, you know, Most people lie at some point, right? Probably everybody at some point has lied. I'm going to guess pretty close to 100%, especially when you're younger. The trick is to understand that you're not doing yourself any favors by doing it. You're not fooling anybody. We talked in the beginning about pretty much people can smell out of folicid right away because they've done it. So they know, right? So.

Well, but let me get back to that because that's something that concerns me. I am not sure in this political framework that we're in right now that people are, that enough people are sniffing out the lies. I think too many people are believing some of them and it's sort of pushing them toward violence. And that concerns me a great deal. We can agree to disagree. You and I don't agree on a lot of political things. That's fine. I'm not going to kill you. And having, the thought of that is outrageous. That's because, you know, we're not in the same room. Why are we in the same room? know. Okay, thank goodness. Okay. But my point is that they are being pushed to the edge of that cliff and some of them are taking that last step. And now is it because they actually are believing the lies or they wanna believe the lie? I don't know. And this is what concerns me.

That's reassuring. Okay, you are. Okay, so you can you are re invited to dinner then in that case, since I know you're not going to kill me with a kitchen knife.

I've been thinking about this a lot. I'm sure the whole country has, mean, in the past several days. And I said to you, I didn't want to talk about it. And yet I'm compelled to talk about it because I see so much wrong right now in what's going on in our world. And I'm worried. And a lot of it has to do with exactly this chapter about honesty and integrity. If we don't tell the truth, if we are lying and if we have no integrity and you are someone that people have put on a pedestal, then people are going to follow you. whether we like that or not. And if they're follow you, are they gonna follow you to a rooftop? You take a shot at a defenseless human being? I may not agree with Charlie Kirk. I don't want Charlie Kirk to die. In fact, I think what he was doing was terrific. He's having a conversation. We should have conversations where we explain your viewpoint versus mine. I don't wanna kill you if I don't believe in your viewpoint. So how have we gotten to the point where we've taken honesty and integrity to the very limit? and is creating some violence.

So I think there is a bunch of different ideas in there together that you've presented all the genera. I think we have to pull them apart a little bit to make sense of it. know, honesty, integrity, honesty is a very personal thing.

Hmm?

Now you asked how people get can follow these people. People I'm putting on a pedestal of people who are people of integrity, not political leaders, not people who have a certain point of view, people of integrity, right? And they can be on any political, they get have no political position, they can have political position on the left or right, they don't, it doesn't matter. People of integrity are people of integrity, right? They're going to follow, they're going to be, what is integrity? It's a cocoon. You're wrapped in this cocoon of honesty, right? So a person of integrity is going to be honest to a fault. They're going to be trustworthy to a fault. You know that you can believe them. It's a very hard status to achieve, right? It takes a lot of work, right? And God knows I've spent the majority of my life outside of that cocoon. I mean, I've never been a pathological liar, but I have not always told the truth, especially when I was younger. And I had to learn this. And I don't want to lose the thread here, but I'm going to digress a little bit and tell you about my family growing up. So I remember when we would go somewhere to an amusement park or something or a movie, which we didn't do that often. But I mean, if there was a fee for a child's fee, and I was, as you know, very small. We talked about that when I was a kid. And so I might have been above the age of that free ticket or the discounted ticket. But my dad, mom or dad would say, he's only X years old. And I knew I wasn't X years old and I didn't say, no, no, I'm not, I'm older. I didn't do that because I already got my head handed to me. But I saw that and I went, that's not honest. Now. Nobody in my family robbed a bank, right? So nobody committed a crime. you know, these little things you notice as a kid, right? And you realize, OK, that's not honesty. So as I became an adult and got older and it took me a while, I realized, my God, this whole idea of making things up and not telling the truth, that's hurting me, right? I'm hurting myself. I can't get that cocoon around myself, right? So that's number one.

That's the political issue is a little bit different because yes, some people will have a narrative, a pre-existing narrative, and they got to follow the person who promotes that narrative. And there are also some people who are incredibly naive, who've not had any adequate parenting. We've talked about this, who are very susceptible to some snake oil salesman who's selling some political point of view, whether it be a religious point of view, because we know they're radical religionists in this world. I'm not talking about this country, I'm talking about the whole world. So they're susceptible to that. that's still the antidote to that is to create this self esteem by being honest. If you create a persona who's become a person of integrity, then you have a certain force field around you, right? You're not so easily swayed. You realize it because honesty is so important to you that you're required to listen to the opposite point of view. When I read a story or see something on the news, and it can be either side, because I read everything as you know, I don't have a political team. I'm not on a team. I look at each event or... issue independently. not on a team, which is one of the reasons you think we disagree because I don't have a team. But I look at each one and as soon as I hear a story from one of those, as soon as I have time, I go to the other side, to some other publications, some other news source that I know sees the world in a different way to see is this true or not. not that it's true. Has this been painted? Am I getting the complete picture? And of course, most of the time I'm not getting the complete picture from one point of view. So the point is to build yourself into a person of substance who then has a certain force field around yourself so that you, because you are a person of substance and a person of integrity, that the political winds don't blow you over because you know that there's likely to be another point of view. And then you can decide on each issue where you want to come down. And again, many of these issues are our opinion. You we talked about abortion a few times, you and I.

You know, I have no problem seeing both sides of the abortion issue. Zero problem, right? So I get how the people who are pro-choice, how they feel, I get it completely. And the people who are pro-life, what they call themselves pro-life, I get that completely. Remember, I'm a doctor. I've done 30,000 obstetrical sonograms. I've seen a lot of fetuses. So, you know, for me, for me, I go, I see I have no problem understanding both sides. And for most issues, we should be able to see both sides. If you're a person of if you you create a persona that is immune to being blown from one end to the other so easily because you decide you want to be honest. Being honest means you have to be open to more than one point of view. You have to be willing to hear things you don't think you want to hear. You just have to listen to them. You don't have to agree with them. You just have to listen to them. And so that to me is the antidote to Focus on yourself in the sense of becoming a person of substance, becoming a person wrapped in a cocoon of integrity by practicing honesty every chance you get. So today, And everybody listening to this podcast and everybody on this planet is going to have to be confronted with a situation where they're going to have to answer a question either truthfully or with a white lie or an outright lie. They're going to have that opportunity. We get them every single day. Everybody. What are you going to do? Are you going to tell the truth? Are you going to say? Oops, I forgot. I'm really sorry. Or I made a mistake. Or I did it wrong. Or I worked on a project and I made a huge error. Or I forgot to do it. Whatever. When you tell the truth, like I said, you get another notch on your belt. That level of integrity rises each and every time. So again, like mostly we talk about this practice. And you can start right now. Just tell the truth. Tell the truth to those around you. Tell the truth to yourself.

honest and watch what happens. This cocoon starts being weaved or woven. guess it starts being woven. And all of a sudden you're two feet off the ground higher than you were before because now you're becoming a person of integrity. People are going to look at you go, wow, he or she is a person of integrity. I respect that person because people respect people who tell the truth. That's what you want to be. And when you work on that and you practice it every day, something miraculous happens. That's what we need to do in this country, by the way. We talk about the solution to the political violence and so on. The aerial view is the solution, for sure. But honesty is a part of that. That's how you get, that's what you see from the aerial view that, my good, everybody knows everybody's lying. Tell the truth. Become a person of substance. Watch what happens to you. Watch what happens to your own self-esteem. Watch what happens to your relationships. Watch what happens to your career. Watch what happens to everything. It's a one-way ticket up.

You know, it used to be that we, as a people, believed in science. We believed that scientists were telling us the truth, that we believed that vaccines were good, we believed that, et cetera, et cetera. But even that now has been called into question. We are now saying that people have been lying to us, that they're not telling us the truth, that we shouldn't listen to them. So where do you stand on that? You're a man of science.

I am.

And science has been in many respects degraded in this country. Tell me, where do you stay? Yeah.

No, I tell you. because we give science too much credit because we've talked about this. I can go through all these theories or these facts of science that have proven to be wrong over the last hundred years. know, things in physics, physics, that's the most solid science of all. And yet we've learned that physics we thought we knew 100 years ago is wrong. I'll you a good one with the vaccines. Am I pro-vaccine? Yeah, of course I'm pro-vaccine. We grew up in the polio. We remember getting those first polio sugar sugar cubes and we, I didn't know anybody at polio, but you know, before we were born, there was a lot of polio and we saw evidence of it. Most of us know people who still have some residual effects from polio when they were young.

Yes.

So did the polio vaccine work? Heck yes. Were people thrilled when the polio vaccine, when Sabin and Sark came out with this vaccine? my God, it was a miracle, right? So that's huge, right? That's probably one of the greatest. I wrote a paper when I was in medical school about the eradication of smallpox from the planet. So vaccinations absolutely work. Now, it's like everything else. Here's a good one. So I got a hepatitis V vaccine when I was somewhere along my course of my medical career. They didn't exist when I first started, I don't think, but somewhere along my medical career. because I was sticking myself with needles, unfortunately. You get tested for hepatitis B or C and then the hepatitis B vaccine came on the market. Well, now every single infant gets, newborn gets hepatitis B. I don't know the exact schedule. I don't want to get this wrong because I should probably ask my kids who just had their kids. But, you know, we can test mothers. hepatitis B, right? So if we test all the mothers' hepatitis B and the mother doesn't hepatitis V, there's no reason to vaccinate the kid, the newborn, unless they're going to stick themselves with the needle down the road. the point is that, you know, we have to be thoughtful about these. It's not like all of this is good. All of this is bad. Yeah, I'm super pro-vaccine, right? Super pro-vaccine. COVID vaccine. Miracle. You know, we're in a different era of COVID now. Do I think everybody has to get a vaccine? I COVID two months ago. Am I going to get a vaccine anytime soon? Of course not, right? But I had gotten 87 boosters up till now. So, you know, there's no hard and fast rules in science either. We think science is very cut and dry. True, false, binary. No, it doesn't work that way. New information becomes available. The knowledge changes. We do things differently. You know, if we were treating patients today like we're treating when I went to medical school, you know, forget it. We have all kinds of great drugs and and techniques and miracle vaccines and all kinds of things have changed. So what we know about science changes over time. Facts are like that. They're facts until they're proven wrong. Doesn't mean they were wrong to begin with. We didn't know any better. And the things we know today that we're sure about today will be proven wrong down the road. So we expect too much of science. We treat science with...

A certain certain what's the right term? I don't want to tell people not to believe in science because I super duper believe in science, but just don't expect it to be be bulletproof and perfect all the time. Science changes, facts change, knowledge changes.

But that's okay. But the messenger then let's talk about then the messenger who's giving us I don't have the answers. I don't know what an MNRA what's in that vaccine. I have no idea. So I have to be able to trust the honesty and integrity of the person who's giving me the call whether to do it or not to do it. And I have a question about well, who do I trust nowadays? Who do I trust? Because who's who's a man or a woman of honesty and integrity and therein lies the problem. Yeah.

So when you were pregnant, when you were pregnant in the 1950s, early 60s, I can't remember the dates exactly, and not you, when a woman was, right, and she had nausea during her pregnancy, intractable nausea, then her doctor gave her, said, we have a new drug out there, we'll treat that, it's called thalidomide, and it works, it'll treat your nausea. Well, we know what happened with the litamide, right? We created all these extremely deformed babies. So was your doctor telling you the truth? Sure. Your doctor was looking out for you. You feel terrible. You have intractable vomiting and nausea. Yeah, I can help you. Somebody gave you this drug that the pharmaceutical company told me is safe and works. So did your doctor lie to you? No. Did the pharmaceutical company lie to you? No, they didn't know at that point either. So that's the point. It changes. We can't. There's no. We have a. We live in a society now where we expect immediate answers and them to always be correct. And they're not always correct, not because people are evil, because they don't know when facts change. So we could be very careful and not use the drug for 30 years until we have enough data that shows, you know what, we know every single complication. But over those 30 years, a bunch of people who could have been benefited weren't. If I tell you a drug is 18 % effective for treating disease A, you would say, well, that's not so good. But it's great if you're one of the 18 % who has that disease and it works. For you, it's 100 % effective. So a medicine is really only two numbers, zero and 100. Something either works or it doesn't, right? A procedure works or it doesn't. A medicine works or it doesn't. It's 100 versus zero. But when you look at the statistics, we say it actually only benefited 18 % of people. So these things are tricky, right? So even if people are trying to do the right thing, most people are trying to do the right thing. Getting back to honesty, that's what I would recommend, right?

Yeah, they are. Yeah.

If you're not an honest person right now and you tend to make up a bunch of white lies even, don't do it. Stop today. Why? Because you're going to put your growth and self-esteem on steroids. You're going to go right straight up. As soon as you stop lying and making things up and people know that they can trust you and you're going to tell them the truth, then that cocoon of integrity gets wrapped around you and bang, off you go.

appreciate that. see that our time has run out. My producer is yelling at me in my ear telling me that we have to break for a commercial. I'm being dishonest. So let me end this. It was pretty dishonest, but it felt good. Let me end this by another paragraph in your chapter on honesty and integrity. And you say, and I love this, dishonesty is too often the currency of politics. Although we know it exists.

That was rather dishonest.

As long as it remains behind the scenes, we tolerate it. When it is thrust into the spotlight, our reaction to the revelation is often anger or disgust. Why? We're accustomed to the ubiquity of dishonesty in our society and are often guilty of the same offense. Shouldn't we simply shrug our shoulders just another day in a dishonest world? Our repulsion of crooked politicians arises from our collective acknowledgement that honesty is preferable to deception. No one wants to live in a society full of liars. Although we individually often fail to meet the standard, we still desire and expect honesty from those in power and those we need to trust. To that I say amen. And I thank you for this conversation about honesty and dishonesty and loyalty and all of that. I'll give you the final word and you have about 15 seconds.

I think I have as long as I want. control the buttons. Just kidding.

It's done.

What you just said about what you just read that I wrote about politicians is so true. want to live in an honest world. Right. But and we expect more of others than we expect of ourselves. Well, here's the here's the lesson I'll say. Expect more of yourself and less of others. Right. Don't expect others to meet your standard. You're not meeting yourself. You meet the standard. You become a person of substance. You wrap that cocoon of integrity around yourself and then watch what happens. You won't really what the politicians say. Not that it's unimportant because it's very important, but it will bother you a bit. us.

I'm going to heed your word today. With that, I will tell you, I honestly love you. Thank you, Olivia Newton-John, and thank you, Dr. Klein. I appreciate it. We'll see you next time. Peace.

keyed. I honestly love you too. Alright, thank you everybody for listening. Bye bye.