Episode 39: Longevity

Welcome to Wisdom from the Area of View, the podcast for those who wish to learn how to crush their anxiety and find meaning and purpose in their lives. Good morning, good afternoon. Mark Klein, how are you today?

I'm fine, Enid. How are you? You look wonderful.

I feel wonderful. It's nice. It's good. It's a good day. Every day we wake up is a good day and I hope we all have a long life. let's talk about living a long life. You sent me a podcast to listen to about someone talking about living a long life and about death. Are we afraid of dying? I started listening to it. I got a little offended by it. There was a little little nuttiness in it, but I got to thinking about living a long life and the longer I go on in this life, I keep thinking about how long is this life gonna last? And then I went, I think Andy Rooney said it best. He said, and let me quote, he said, it's paradoxical that the idea of living a long life appeals to everyone, but the idea of getting old doesn't appeal to anyone. And that's true, we want to live a long life, we just don't want to get old. I think the longer I live and the longer I get old, I think about that. What about you?

yeah, sure. It's hard not to think about it. So I have so many ideas, things we can talk about on this topic. The podcast I sent you was actually Star Talk by Neil deGrasse Tyson, who's head of the Rose Center, the Hayden Planetarium in Manhattan. Very smart guy, astrophysicist. And he has these very interesting guests. I think what bothered you was the same thing that I find strange about his podcast. He's a cool guy and I love listening to him. A, he's got an unbelievable great voice. He's obviously super smart. And he has really good guests on but he also has friends of his who are comedians. And so in the middle of these very high end scientific conversations, he has some guys cracking jokes. it is a little bit, I think you have to have a certain, well for some people, it's an acquired taste I would say. But anyway, I did listen to the whole thing. And his guest was a scientist from Stanford, I think it was Stanford.

It's off putting.

who's done a lot of work on longevity and very, very interesting guy. Anyway, so they talked about longevity and now all the efforts so that we can live longer and the changes in changing our genome, our DNA and the epigenetics and all kinds of cool things that are now being done so that people live longer. And then towards the end, one of the guys said, I think it actually was a comedian, believe it or not, who said, I don't know, you know, As you get older, you don't feel so great and things are hard. I'm not sure if I really want to live that long. Okay. And you, of course, have said many times you deal with the elderly in terms of mostly hunger. And you are a person I would consider an expert when it comes to the elderly in so many ways, because you've dedicated your career to that. elderly people, as you have said, have certain situations that arise, loneliness, illness, pain, limitation of mobility or hearing or sight or so many things. And so getting back to what the comedian said is, yeah, if you live to 120 in the last 20 years or 30 years or challenging, that might not be such a great idea either. But what I thought about when I listened to this is the idea that I think it's barking up the wrong tree. Longevity, as you and I have discussed, in my view, is not the goal of life. And as Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, the famous psychiatrist in the 20th century who wrote, who did the seminal work on death and dying, in fact, her book on death and dying is quoted, even if people don't realize it, they're quoting it all the time, the five stages of... of death, anger, denial, anger, grief, acceptance. I don't remember all, never get him in the right order, but you get the idea. But that's who she was. And she would say to you, can have a meaningful life if you lived only a single day. And that flies in the face of all this stuff about longevity. And the reason she says that is because she talks about, it really gets back to purpose. What's your purpose? Right? And we spend

grief.

at least a portion of every one of these episodes at some point talking about purpose and our mission and that evolution from selfish to selfless, from inward to outward focus. And the number of years that you live is not the critical determining factor in whether or not you complete your mission. I look at... longevity differently than when I was listening, especially this podcast, then those scientists look at it. I'm not against longevity, I mean, for sure, but I do think it tends to miss the point that that's really not where our focus needs to be in our society, needs to be on our mission and what we do while we're here.

Yeah, I agree. tell you, you tell stories, I'll tell a little one. I've been asked to speak at keynote address at my alma mater. And it's a day of mentoring for the college kids. And I said, well, what topic would you like me to speak on? And they said, purpose. I said, okay, I will talk about purpose. She said, you know, mission, purpose. I said, is it, are they one and the same? Is your mission your purpose? Is your purpose your mission? And the professor, I don't, I'm not sure. And I kept thinking, well, what am I going to write about? And is it the same? And I came across something that I loved by author Robert Byrne. He wrote, the purpose of life is a life of purpose. And I thought, well, that's good. That's very good. So let me ask you this, because you've been thinking about this for years, probably many more years than I have, because I've been trying to do things in my life and you've been trying to think about life. Kidding. I just wanted to get you.

Ha ha.

Tell me, do you think is the difference between purpose and mission?

I think you've asked me this before. All right. I think they're very tightly intertwined. don't think it's for me, it's worth parsing the difference that I think purpose, if you have no purpose, then it's just a random act of events in your life. And we talked about violence previously on a previous episode, then.

Well, let me ask it again.

Okay.

If you have no purpose and no meaning, then you might as well go out and do whatever you want. If it means hurting people who cares, Then it really becomes whatever you decide. how you would want to live your life. But if you think there's a purpose that you have a mission, there's a reason you're here, then you're likely to take a more dedicated path or at least focus a little more on what your path should be. And everybody at some point in their life, they might be young when they do it, they might be old and they probably do it multiple times. They stop and go at some point, what is the point? Why am I here?

Yeah.

Right? Everybody. I don't think there's a human being on this planet who has some consciousness that hasn't thought about that at some point. You know, the fact that we all think about it, that's very telling. means from somewhere inside, are, I don't know if we say we're born with it, but we're certainly nationally inclined to consider the fact that we're here for a reason. Everybody feels it at some point. Sometimes a reason can be a really negative reason and then people end up doing heinous things. But, and then I think they've misinterpreted their purpose. We've talked about that many times, but I think mission and purpose, think we can, unless you object, I think we can use them fairly interchangeably, get the idea that there's a reason, there's a reason we're here.

Well, it is interesting, I don't use them interchangeably and it's interesting why. When you're in my line of work in the nonprofit world, we always talk about what's your mission statement. We never talk about what's our purpose statement. And I think we've sort of come to the realization that maybe they are different. And maybe it's just a matter of semantics, but maybe they are different, I don't know. Maybe it doesn't even matter. But you said something about, Well, let me go back to that podcast you were listening to that I turned off. He talked a lot about death, didn't he? And you talk a lot about death. You're one of the few people I know looking forward to it, I think. You're not afraid of it. But most of us, I would suspect, are afraid of it. What did that scientist that the doctor, I guess he's a scientist, he wasn't a medical doctor, I think he was a scientist. What did he, was he too? Okay.

Yes.

I think he was also a medical doctor too. think he had I think he was yes.

What did he say about death? I didn't get that far into the podcast.

You know, look, nobody knows what death is. know, we, religious people will focus on a hereafter, heaven, hell, so on. But of course, nobody knows. But it is a great clue. It is the ultimate clue, because as we talked about in our jukebox of time, there is a final record for everybody. We call that the day of your death, right? The day you leave this earth. That everybody has that last record. We've talked about that numerous times. so death is occlusive. Okay, you're not getting out of here alive. Okay, that tells you that is that implies purpose. Right. And I'll tell you why. It's the clue, the clue to why we're here. The clue to our purpose. I will explain. So we live our lives. I was just talking about this with somebody yesterday, actually. Enid (09:38.2) But wait, death is the clue? Clue to what? Tell me about that. Explain that to me.

We live our lives as if we make every right choice and every right decision, then we somehow are going to win, right? Win what? Make it more money, live in a bigger house, whatever. But you're not going to win the game because you have a last record just like anybody else, no matter what. So we live our lives as if we do everything right. We're going to win this game. But of course, there's no winning the game. Right. So death tells you that you're focusing on the wrong thing. You can't win the game. You can't get out of here alive. It's impossible. It's never happened. It's never going to happen. That's the way it is. Even if we extend life spans from 100 years to 150 years, there's still that last record. Right. Forgetting about what those last 50 years are like in terms of how we feel. But there's still always going to be a last record. It's going to happen. And yet we live our lives as if it's not. Death is telling you you're getting it wrong. You know, shouldn't be focusing on how you can live the longest because there is a last day for everybody. You should be focusing on what in the world you're doing here while you're here. It implies purpose. It implies a mission that you're here for a reason. You're going to die. What are you going to do during the days of your life, the days you have here? What are you going to make out of it? What are people going to say at the end about the life you lived? You know, I've told you this a million times, the day you're at your funeral, whoever's given those eulogies, they're all going to sound the same. This is a woman who dedicated a life to the welfare of others. That's going to be the theme. I'd be happy to, although, well, actually, why don't we make a deal, right? All right, I go first, you do my eulogy and vice versa. All right?

Can I mark you down as one of my you'll just thank you. Okay, yeah. In fact, I've already written yours, so it's okay. We're ready.

So anyway, the point is that's what people are going to say, right? And that's what you want. And what are you going to say about your life during your last moments, right? So death is telling you it's not about longevity. You can't get out. It doesn't matter. was 20 years, 50 years, 80 years, 100 years, 150 years. It doesn't matter. That's not. the point. So as I listened to this podcast, I'm thinking, well, that's nice. But you guys, in my view, you're not, know, it's nice and people do want to live longer, but they want to live healthier. They don't want to live longer if they're going to be moribund, you know, they're going to be have dementia, they're not going to be able to walk or see or hear, you know, if they're not going be able to do anything. don't think adding another 20 lives is a lot of people are going to sign up for that.

Yeah.

Maybe they will, but I think most people, that's not what they're looking for. But anyway, longevity can't be the purpose of life. You can't get out of here alive. There is a last record. And the actual number, what Elizabeth Kubler-Ross is telling people is don't worry about the number. That's not what matters. You can live a fulfilling life in a day. Okay, maybe that's hyperbole, but you can certainly live a... I'll give you an example. We lost an eight-year-old and a 10-year-old in this shooting recently, right? And there were 10-year-olds... protecting other kids. They knew, somehow they knew that they're... Their mission was to protect others, to take care of others. If you lose your life at 10 years old, but you've understood that fact, and you've lived your life and shown the ability to care for others and to care for others, you win. Now, it's a tragedy for the child, and it's maybe even a greater tragedy for the family, right? Who has to carry on having lost this child. I can't imagine it, and I have some ideas about how to get through it for another time, but still. That child exhibited this behavior that really was the completion of his or her mission to care for others, to put others ahead of yourself, to turn that camera from yourself to others. Wow. In 10 years, that child, that person had a successful life. When somebody in the military or first responder puts themselves in harm's way to save the life of another, that's a successful life. Wow. Right? That's it. It might be short. Maybe that soldier or police officer was way too young and probably was too young for sure. But they had the sense that I'm going to sacrifice myself for somebody else. That's a successful life. Longevity is not the point of life. will never. It's not the mission. Right. And so let's not get distracted by that.

I think you're right. You're talking about the young boy who threw his body over the body of the other child who died. And he, in fact, took a bullet to his back or his stomach, whatever. But you're right. So let me ask you this then. And I work, you're right, I work with older adults. And I go every Friday to the senior center and do some volunteer work. I do it every Friday. I look forward to every Friday to do this. And I see a lot of older people who are ailing. They're physically ailing. Physically ailing. Mentally not. Why are they, why do I say that? Because they get together as a group, they do it every day, I only go on Fridays, and they socialize. And when you talk to them individually though, and some of them are well into their 90s, they want to keep going. They want to keep living. And I think it's because they have a purpose. Whatever their purpose might be, I don't know what that is. But one would assume they know what their purpose is. It's... Yeah.

So I have an idea. How about one Friday, I meet you at the senior center and we ask them, all of them, what their purpose is. Let's do that. I think we'll be pleasantly surprised.

That'd be a great idea. That'd be a great idea. Yeah. And there are a wonderful group of people that from all over the world, it's a community of immigrants from all over the world. And they all get together and they have a good time. And as I said, they come in and walkers and some in wheelchairs, some with oxygen tanks, but they're there. They're there socializing and they are there living. I think in many respects, living is a purpose. just being with one another, they're fulfilling a mission.

Well, I think you've hit a very important point that relationships, we've talked about this also, to me, relationships are the cornerstone of happiness. to have at least an enjoyable life, you have to have relationships. That's why loneliness is such a curse, why you've seen it all the time, what it does to people.

Yeah.

I think the relationships, being together, sharing things together, I'm not so much its purpose, but I'll give you an example. I'm pretty sure when two older people get together, and you and I are not young, right? But exactly. But let's say you call me one day and say, I have issue, something's bothering me, what do you think? And my initial focus is what? It's on you, right?

Well, speak for yourself, but yeah.

let's talk about it, what can I do to help you? And of course you do the same thing, right? You do it every day. It's that part of the relationships is that that interaction creates this bond and then automatically your sense is to care about the other side of that relationship, the person with whom you're interacting. You all of sudden care about them. I was at a bike store the other day and I bought a bike, I told you, and the turns out the price when I got home, I happened to look online, a friend of mine told me to look up the price and the price was actually for the same bike from the same company online, like $250 cheaper. So I called the, sent an email to the guy, was the guy who owned the store, very nice guy. And I said, look, this happened. And he said, look, you know, unfortunately the manufacturer, it's a very well-known manufacturer, legitimate manufacturer. you we buy the bikes from them, when they lower the price, they don't then rebate us if the price is lowered. He said, it's not right. We've talked to them about it, puts us in a bad situation. goes, but, and I said to him, said, okay, I'm fine. Leave it the way it is because I care more about you in this situation. I do about me. A, I can afford it. It's okay. $250. Nobody likes to throw out $250, but I was much more concerned. And again, I'm in a situation where I can pay my bills. I can buy food. have, a roof over my head. So it's easy when you have the wherewithal to say this, I'm not being a hero, just I happen to be fortunate having had a long career and I've saved money and $250 I can afford to walk away from that. Not everybody can, many, many people can't, but I can. And I said, I'm much more concerned about you. I don't want you to suffer because of this situation. Don't worry about it. I'm going to buy another bike for me from my wife. We're going to buy all this stuff. We'll figure something out over the course of time. Okay. So On the one hand, people would say, well, you have the wherewithal, financial wherewithal to do that. But I will tell you that

I've done this in my life previously when I really didn't have the financial wherewithal to do it, when I was going to feel it, because it was more important for me to know that I was not taking advantage of somebody else, that I was not putting somebody else in a situation that would, I mean, I don't know his financial situation. I guess the feeling is not making gobs of money in this small store. Maybe I'm wrong, but anyways, more important for him to feel good about this. And for me, that's a joy. It's a gift. A, it's a blessing that I can do it, but it's also a great source because we have a relationship, P and I. Every time you interact with somebody, it's a relationship. A relationship isn't just you and I who know each other. for a million years, you meet somebody in a restaurant. Last night I went to a restaurant. The waiter was a super nice guy. He was so friendly, big smile. As you know, I always ask the waiter or waitress, is your name? And I ask them a couple of questions, just because it's a relationship. So, okay, our relationship lasted an hour. Then we went home and who knows if I'll ever see this guy again. But during that period of time, it's a relationship. Relationships are critical. They give us so much joy. They're so fulfilling. And when you are in a relationship,

Mm-hmm.

The natural inclination is to want to not take advantage of the person and perhaps in some way help the other person. And you and I know people love helping other people. They love giving advice. They love helping people out. They love when people ask them for their opinion. People like that. So relationships are critical to this.

Yeah, I totally agree. mean, even Shakespeare, I kind of quote the other day about Shakespeare. What did he say? He talked about the link between kindness and longevity in his own way, obviously. He said that a physical body will die one day, but we give to others, we'll live on, and we'll pass on to other generations. And that's exactly what it's about. It's about the kindness factor. That's one of the things we haven't really talked about, the kindness factor. But I do think that when we are kind, Everybody benefits everybody. It helps us inwardly and outwardly and that gets to your inward focus versus outward. But I think when we talk about longevity, we can relate it to kindness because the longer we live, excuse me, the kinder we become, I think.

I think we should look at life as an opportunity to make a difference. So you show up on this earth, you're born, you have a certain number of days. Again, death is the greatest clue, right? It's coming. Longevity is not the goal. It doesn't matter. It matters what you do here. So you look at your life and say, What am I going to do while I'm here? And the most important thing you can do while you're here. I'm not against, you know, look, invent things, create things. We need that. Right. And that's fulfilling for everybody. And it's all it's, you know, we talk about how accomplishments are the greatest source of self-esteem without self-esteem, self-esteem. can't possibly make the transition from selfish to selfless. You can't do it. You need self-esteem. You can do that through your accomplishments. So working hard, doing things, building things, creating things. These are all critically important. Right. And along the way, your mission, as we talked about, or your purpose, whatever, is to go ahead and use whatever tools you are developing, skills you have developed, knowledge you have acquired, to then help these other people. Look, Shakespeare, this guy, I still think he's underrated. Shakespeare is unbelievable. It's hard to read, but... There's a gem in every single one of his plays, multiple gems. They're all over the place. But anyway, this idea of making somebody alive is intimately and intricately involved with relationships, with giving to others. That's why relationships are the mechanism by which we fulfill our mission. Whether it's going to the senior center and helping those people or helping a person who...

You bet, you bet.

is hungry or lonely or whatever. Any way you can help somebody, you've created a relationship. It's through that relationship, through that connection that you are fulfilling your mission, that you are making that evolution that we need to do in our lives. That's what relationships are for. That's the way we express our purpose.

When you were deciding on your own career, way back when, and you thought, well, I think I'll go to med school. I think I'll be a doctor. What was the reasoning behind it? it about, was it mission driven? What was it that you said to yourself, this is what I need to do. This is what I want to do, but it's also what I need to do. When would the light bulb go off when you realized, I gotta do this?

You know, I was pretty young, but I can tell you the sense of being able to help people, that was always the driving force. You know, I liked science. liked, I always liked science. And I found it fascinating and I still find it fascinating. it certainly in medicine, but in all areas. But that sense of being able to make a difference to help people. I think I said, I remember, I remember my mother was, I think she was with some of her friends. I don't remember. I have this image in my head. and it was, yeah. And she said to me one day, why do you want to go to, why do you want to be a doctor? And I said, you see all your friends that are sitting over there? They were, guess, out of earshot. I said, I want to take care of people like that and have them say that I made a big, positive difference in their life. I actually said that. So I don't know where that came from. I have no idea. But yes, that, that, and I would say I do have, I've always had this need and I call it a need. It's a...

Yeah.

in a sense that it's an obligation to do what I can to help as many people as I can. That's just like you. mean, we have, it's so funny, you and I joke around, especially you joke around about, we see politics differently or other things differently, but. There's not a millimeter of difference between what we both envision our purpose and mission in this life. We see it the same way, right? This is why we're here. This is our responsibility. This is where the joy comes from, which is the greatest part about it. know, people think, I have to help somebody. Are you kidding? You want to feel good? That's the magic trick, right? Right? You know, when things are tough, go help somebody else. Right. Right.

Exactly.

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, yeah, that's right, yeah. I was thinking the other day too that I was looking at some statistics about where the fields that doctors are going into. And one of the least desirable, I guess, fields is geriatrics. I guess we just, it's a whole generation of folks who somebody needs to care about and yet physicians don't seem to want to go into geriatrics. Why do you think that is?

You know what's funny? I can tell you why. Because when you're young and making a decision about your career, old people are a mile away. They're a light year away, right? And you go, oh, well, they're old, they're going to die, and I don't

Why? Yeah.

I spend my time working with that. Let me try and focus on some cooler stuff, whether it be surgery. You're not doing surgeries on 90-year-olds. So the natural inclination is to focus on the cool stuff, the fun stuff. And you don't think about that now where I am right now. Wow. Cereaxics would be a super cool specialty. Why? Because you're talking to people, A, generally speaking, that...

Yeah.

are very grateful that they've already gotten to the point they've gotten at. They know a whole lot of stuff. The conversations will be fascinating. They're a source of all kinds of wisdom and gems. now, you know, that now I look at it now and I go, wow, this is, you know, why didn't I think of that? But that's why it's just not, we don't see it. When you're young and you're a young physician, it's not exciting, it's not stimulating. You don't appreciate what the value is at that point, that's why.

Yeah.

Yeah, we don't appreciate the value of older Americans, of older people, of older adults. don't. I wonder how we change the mindset. How do we do that? mean, obviously, as we get older, and I'm proud of getting older. I mean, I think it's great that I've done it.

We don't. We don't.

I think we need more elderly comedians. think that would help. Yeah, because if young people saw these people, hey, these people are really funny, they might get into it. I'm just kidding. But I don't know. It's a good question. Because I appreciate it way differently now than I did when I was making my decision. When I was trying to decide what I want, yeah, of course. I realized, my god, these older people, they know so many cool things. It's so great.

Used to, those used to be the comedians, now it's the young ones. And that's true.

Well, no, actually, yeah, I just...

Because you're older now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I wish we could change that. Yeah, yeah. Particularly because we need them, you know.

Well, we need them. But know what's so interesting about that? It's that this is probably not, well, actually it looks like we're running out of time. My God, how did that happen? All before we get back to the geriatric part, let me just say, let me just wrap up something about longevity, because I've talked about it before and it's really helpful, right? So as people get older and we hear it, they lament the fact that every morning they wake up and something hurts.

Yeah. Yeah.

or they have aches and pains or worse, have some kind of chronic illness, whatever it is. And so, like you said, that quote, we want to live a long time, but we don't want to get older. But that's if we look at it from a very specific perspective, which is as a young person now getting older, that we could do all these things before and we can't do them now. But if we look at it from the aerial view and the idea of our life as a book, and we realize we're just on a different page of the book, and each page is important and equal, each moment in our lives is equivalent in terms of its value, then we can embrace these moments of our later years when maybe we don't feel so good, and maybe we can't do the things we want to do. We probably can't, right? We probably can't do everything we want to do. We probably don't feel great every day. And some people don't feel great any day, right? But... The other way to look at it from the aerial is to embrace those moments that are all part of our story. So they're not fun, but they're interesting. I have a friend who's about to have surgery in the next couple of days. And I've talked to her about this and said, is part of your story. know, just, you know, she doesn't have to laugh before she gets the surgery like I did, but understand this is part of your story.

You

Right? So embrace this part of your story. It's not, quote, as much fun, but it is interesting. And at the end of the day, at the end of our lives, when our book is completed, there is no one page is going to jump out as more important. Every page is an equivalent part of our story. Embrace every moment, embrace every page, embrace these latter years when you may not be feeling so well because you do know more, you have a much greater appreciation of what the value of life is. So on the one hand, yeah, you physically are not doing as great, but you know a whole lot more than you did before and you have a much different appreciation of life. So try as best you can. And it's hard, it's not easy. I try every day to do this and I fail sometimes, but I remind myself, no, no, all moments or equivalent, embrace these moments, even the ones that aren't so much fun. They're all part of our story. And I think when we do that, it makes it much easier to advance in age. And our last record will come, that's for sure. Embrace the ones you have in front of you.

Very good, and I'll leave it and then let's leave this wonderful discussion with a quote from Mark Twain. He said, the two most important days in life are the day you were born and the day you discovered the reason why.

Amen.

So with that, I will say have a wonderful rest of your day. We look forward to next time and you get the final word.

Final word is thanks as always, Enid. It's always a blast and I wish all our listeners a very fulfilling and meaningful day.

Absolutely. Peace.