Episode 33: Civility

Welcome to wisdom from the aerial view the podcast for those who wish to learn how to crush their anxiety and find meaning and purpose in their lives Good morning. Good afternoon Good evening. Dr. Mark Klein. How are you today?

It's so good to see you. know, don't say it. It's good to be seen. I know what you're to say.

Well, no, I wasn't going to say that, but now that you mention it. so Mark and I really talk about some topics that we might want to discuss. And I said to him this week, I said, what do you want to talk about? He said, how about how the Democrats and Republicans are not civil with each other? And I thought, you know what, you're right. They're not. And so it got me down a little rabbit hole. And I found an organization called the Institute for Civil Civic Engagement, which is at the University of San Diego. Interesting, isn't it? civic engagement. they started out by talking about a definition which I thought, that's a good thing to do. And they say, what is civility? They say civility, which comes to us from the Latin word for citizen, includes not only the notions of courtesy and politeness, but also such matters as social relationships and proper conduct in human relationships. For some, civility is the essential glue that holds society together. and it involves such simple issues as friendship, altruism, responsibility, dignity, and justice. Now, Aristotle saw civility as a form of friendship, but Thomas Hobbes believed that humans are incapable of sympathy with the interests of others. And he said that we're ultimately motivated by self-interest in all of our acts. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about civility and why we seem to be losing a sense of that. in Congress, in normal life, but you talk very specifically about Democrats and Republicans, again about tribalism. So let's talk about civility. You do have a chapter in the book, not necessarily on civility, but maybe, yes, on civility, because it's on respect. So we can talk about civility and respect. Let's say you.

I think we're going to talk about whatever you want because you are the boss of the podcast. There you go. Well, you know, the reason I suggested this, because many of us have friends who with whom we may not disagree on certain political issues. And you and I, since we grew up together.

me and Bruce Springsteen. Okay. Yeah.

I think we agree that this didn't occur in that era. I have no idea. My mother was the original yellow dog Democrat. For those of don't know what the term, it's an old term that means I'd rather vote for a yellow dog than anybody than vote for a Republican. So she wouldn't see any reason to talk to Republicans. But I don't remember her being of ill will towards anybody. Granted, our community probably was pretty similar, but I don't remember this. I remember Republicans and Democrats in Congress disagreeing, but then they'd go out and have dinner together and they'd hang out with each other's families. There was a lot more camaraderie, mainly because I think most of them lived here. They didn't run back every weekend to their jurisdiction, but we didn't have this kind of What's the right word? Antipathy towards the other side that we clearly have now.

But the other thing is, would say, Mark, that we didn't have a platform for antipathy. We didn't have social media. We didn't have 24-hour news cycles. So there wasn't the opportunity to sort of start beating up on everybody else. Wouldn't you think that is probably true?

I think that's a big part of it, yes, but I do think that I remember like Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan were buddies and yeah, so you saw that a lot. think the fact that we don't spend enough time with each other, I think that's a really big problem. we can start there. think we can, you we don't, unless you have a specific agenda. So one of the things I've noticed is that we don't...

Sure. And then go out for a beer. Yeah.

No, no, that's, yeah, no.

interact with each other and with people of different... opinion certainly, maybe as much as we used to, certainly COVID made it 100 times worse. But still, not everybody's back in the office full time. was only very recently that the federal government required after five years for people to return to the office. The federal government, I found that incredible. And I think that the fact that even private corporations are spending, people are not required to be be on site five days a week, or maybe even at all in some cases, this does harm to our interpersonal relationships and one of the manifestations is this situation we are now ensconced in our own bubbles. So we read what we want to read. If you want to, you don't need to read or listen to the other side or alternative opinion if you don't want to. If you're a Democrat, you're just perfectly fine. can listen to, you can read the New York Times, can listen to MSNBC or watch MSNBC. You can listen to NPR. You don't really have to get the other side of the story. And the converse is true for Republicans. You can listen to, you know, certain radio stations. You can watch Fox News and... You don't have to hear what the other side says either. So I think you're right that the media landscape has changed and that contributes to it. But I think the fact that we don't spend enough time together. Here's something that I don't think you and I have talked about, but I've thought about a lot and I don't understand why it hasn't happened. So we used to have a draft. We have a military conscription in this country and

By the time the Vietnam War ended many years ago, people were so upset with that war that we basically said, we're going to get rid of the draft also. We're not going to force people to go into the military. Now we have a 100 % voluntary military. Nobody's required to be drafted. But one of the consequences is 18-year-olds did not need to, from the Midwest, did not need to spend time with 18-year-olds from New York or California and vice versa. And so you, again, you're pretty much ensconced in your own bubble. You don't get to meet other people. So I was thinking, not that we have to bring back the draft, but what do you think about if it would be helpful to bring back some type of mandatory public service for 18 year olds, whether they work in the inner city, rural areas, healthcare, lots of things other than the military. Certainly the military would be one option, but it wouldn't be the only option. And we get people to, we kind of force young people to meet people who have grown up differently or have different life experiences.

I love it with one proviso. I don't think we should make it mandatory and I'll tell you why. When we make something mandatory, it becomes drudgery. I have to do this. I would like to, I would rather see a society that says, I want to do this. There is AmeriCorps, there is Teach for America. There are things out there. What we need to do, frankly, is do a better job of promoting those kinds of things. I think you're absolutely right. We need to meet people who are not like us. Yes, you and I both grew up in the same place. My parents were both. yellow dog Democrats. And that's what I knew. That was fine. And I didn't meet anybody who was different from me until I went to college. And then all of a sudden, I saw different people, different ideas, different thoughts. College did that for me, sort of. But I think the whole notion of meeting people who are different from you is a fantastic idea. But I'm worried about the word mandatory. I'm worried about making something so heavy handed that it becomes drudgery and that what that troubles me.

Well, I don't want to spend too much time on this issue, but I would say the reason I think it should be mandatory is because it's making people give back something to their country, to their community. I don't think there's anything more. Maybe a mandatory conscription in the draft is something that we don't want to do at this point yet, even though we did it before and lots of other countries do it. But. Still, I think we should require people at the age of 18 and it'll be good for them. Actually, it probably would have been really good for me, certainly, and maybe a lot of people to take that year to mature a little bit. But I think so I think making it mandatory is OK because everybody has to do it. Everybody's equal. But it's just I think it's a good way to get people. Now, it doesn't work if you can stay in your own neighborhood and do it right. That's not going to get the job done. You have to we have to figure out a way. And I don't know. I don't think this should be a partisan issue.

Yeah.

So I don't know why both sides wouldn't agree to this. I'm not sure why it hasn't happened yet. But anyway, the point being getting back to the theme, what we want to talk about is one way to. limited contentiousness we're seeing now in a society, to get people at a young age to spend time with people who see the world differently, whose experiences were different, whose childhoods were different. I think it's a really good time to do it. I think that would go a long way to even with the social media, even with the segregated media, think putting people together is the way to go. And I'll give you an example from my life. So I've spent my career in downtown Washington, D.C. When I first got here, think probably when you first got here, the city was majority black. It is now, I mean, it was like 80 % black when I got here, which meant that most of my patients were black, which means that almost everybody I worked with was black. And having grown up where we grew up, we didn't have that experience, right? We had, grew up in a very, I wouldn't say it was segregated, it's just the way it was, right? in the community in which we grew up. So this was really for me, I won't say it was an eye-opener, but it was a great experience. so, you know, when people say to me, you know, to be colorblind is a ridiculous idea. And I went, well, I don't know. I can just tell you my experience. You know, after 40-something years working with people who are mostly black and after that, some Hispanic, and most of my, at least half of my patients were black. I don't see the world that way. mean, to me, it's like, when I like somebody, I like them. I could care less what color ethnicity, it doesn't make any difference. And I don't think I'm unique. I just as my experience when you work with people who are different than you, let's say a different race, and they're fabulous, then that's all that counts, right? And we're still very close. We're still very close. Even though I've left my practice a couple of years ago, know, in fact, we're getting together, I think in a couple of weeks to have a group dinner together.

Absolutely.

But I don't see people that way. mean, and I think only that's only because I was immersed in it. This was my environment. So the more we do this with each other and we know there's a lot of anti-Semitism in the country now. It's like gone up by 800 percent or something like that. Well, if people have never seen a Jew and they haven't worked with a Jew and all they read is whatever social media or whatever, they get their information. That's a lot different than hanging out with a group of Jewish people that go, you guys are fun, right? I like you guys, right? Which is what happens with every group, right? It's not whether you're Jewish or black or Hispanic.

you

people that, know, every group can be segregated as follows. They're really good people, which is the vast majority, and they're really bad people, which fortunately is a very small minority. And once you figure that out, then it doesn't matter what religion somebody is, what race is, what color, and certainly not what political party they are. Now let's move back to the political party part, because I think maybe I digress a little bit, because this is one of my favorite topics, just treating everybody the same because everybody is the same. But the political stuff is very interesting and it gets back to, I have a friend of mine who I'm on his mailing list. He's a very smart guy. I think I've talked about him before. Has done very, very well in business. He's very successful because he's worked super hard and he's very smart. And he's now spent the latter part of his life doing immense philanthropic work. in terms of with universities, with all kinds of groups around the country. He's really walked the walk. He's really he really has given back a tremendous amount and continues to do so. I have great respect for the guy, but he's also super partisan, right? He happens to be a Democrat, super partisan. And he sends out these emails to his friends on the list. And it's mostly I would say. It's a lot of Trump bashing, I would say you'd probably really like it a lot. I'll forward you his emails. You'd like that a lot, but it's mostly that. And he comes at it because from a point of view of he really believes that his position is correct and that this is harm some of the things that are being done now are harmful. And I completely get it. the only thing I and so I said to him, I wrote actually an email the other day. said I created I created four lists.

I would really like get me on that mailing list. Yeah.

And the list serves follows, things that Trump has done that are good, things that Trump has done or plan to do that are bad, things that the Democrats want to do or have done that are good, and things that Democrats have done and want to do that are bad. And none of the lists is empty. They all have stuff on them. And when you look at it that way, you say, okay, you know, The first thing you realize, if you're honest about it, is that neither party owns the moral high ground. Neither group is right about everything. There is plenty to dispute from both sides. And so when you allow yourself to get to that point, then least you open you up to the possibility of conversation and say, okay, I think this is wrong. And somebody else may say, well, I think that is right. Let's talk about it, right? But if you come at it where I know I'm right and I know I have the moral high ground and I know therefore you are wrong, it's not gonna work.

Yes, however, let me say, there's no question I am not a Trump fan. putting that aside, which is hard, but I'll put that aside. The problem that I have in the conversation that we're having about civility is not about you believe this and I believe that, that's fine. And even if I think you're wrong in your belief, okay. But the question of can we be civil when we discuss things? When we have a man, in this case, the President of the United States, who is never civil. He treats people like garbage. He wants to, I mean, he says things about people that you would never, you Mark would never say about a woman, but he has no qualms about saying things about women, about their appearance, et cetera, et And this began a long time ago. Forgetting the politics of it, it's the civility behind it. There is nothing civil about his behavior. And now, and I was just in an article in... just today's paper about how the Democrats, my beloved Democrats, are now deciding, well, maybe we better start cursing too. So let's be uncivil too. So my question, my biggest problem here is not about Republicans versus Democrats. We can argue that all day, it doesn't matter. It's whether we can be civil to one another. You can dislike Donald Trump, but be civil about it. I'm not gonna say nasty things about him that are harmful, that are uncivil.

yeah.

that are not civil. And this is my problem with all of this. It's not necessarily the politics. It's the, what we're talking about is the civility of it. You have to agree with me that this is an uncivil society.

100 % agree with you. 100 % agree with you. I don't see, there's not a single thing you just said that I would disagree with. And that's what I'm getting at though, is that the reason is that if you're so sure you're right, if you're so sure that you occupy them, not you and me, but one thing's they occupy the moral high ground, then they're looking down and automatically that you're not going to have an equal conversation. And what I think I've told you this, one of the rules I've found in my life is that when I'm pretty sure I occupy the moral high ground, a bell goes off in my

Yeah, yeah.

head. Are you sure mark it says? Are you sure you're on the mount? How do you know for sure? You think you are, but is there another way to look at it? Can we climb into somebody else's head who sees the world differently and look through their eyes and listen through their ears and maybe they think they have the moral high ground on the same exact issue? How do you know? It's very humbling. Humility is what we're missing. have to every time you think you own the moral high ground, that's when the bells should go off. Humility is required. Perhaps you do, but perhaps you don't. Or perhaps there's neither group has the moral high ground because it's a little more nuanced. I'll give you an example. So We spend a lot of time these days talking about the illegal immigration and what the administration is doing and people are upset and other people think it's the right thing to do and so on. So there's clearly not a single line of thought on this. And the reason there's not a single line of thought is because if you change your perspective, you see things differently. So I remember watching something or reading something a number of months ago, probably a year ago, maybe even more, about probably at least maybe two years ago now in Chicago. And there was a group of people in Chicago in the lower income communities that were screaming at the mayor. Why? because they were giving all this money and these services to the massive influx of illegal immigrants that got shipped there from Texas or Florida, wherever they got shipped there from. I think mostly Texas. And they lost their community center and the money was being diverted to take care of these people. And these people who were mostly Blacks, turns out, were livid. They were furious.

And so when you look at something, I looked at this and I went, okay, I get that. I also get the fact that people think, well, we have to take care of each other. These people, yes, they're illegal, but they have to eat and we have to house them. It's not hard for a reasonable, thoughtful person to see both sides of this, but that's the point. These are not victimless situations. When you make a decision to take care of one group, you may hurt the other group. So the other group might look at it and say, hey, wait, what about me? So you're trying to be compassionate towards group A, but group B sees it a different way. They say, well, yeah, you're being compassionate to them, but what about us? We've been here forever and nobody's taken care of us. And we have all these problems in the community. And now the schools are overcrowded and we can't get an appointment at the health clinic because now we have these people there at the health clinic that have just arrived in our communities. If you're willing to open your mind, you can see multiple sides of this. And you might come down on one side or the other, I have no problem with that. But you have to understand that there's more than one way to look at most of these situations. And so once you do that, then you open your mind up to a different point of view and an ability to have a conversation with people. That the other side isn't evil. You're not right and they're not horrible human beings. There's more than one way to see it.

Well, don't you think maybe two, it gets to the point of we label people. You just said something inadvertently, think, hope. You said they may be illegal. Well, nobody's illegal. Now they might have come here illegally, but putting the moniker on them that they are illegal, we're putting the scarlet A on their chest. No, no, except, no, no, but my point is why do we call people, again, we're calling, when we were kids and we had a podcast on this,

Okay, you can call them whatever you want to call them. I just, yeah.

about sticks and stones. We called somebody this, we called somebody that. Maybe, Mark, maybe we've gotten to the point in our society where we label people, we give them labels that are less than nice. And that, again, is not civil.

Okay, I don't disagree with that either. I mean, I just use the term meaning they came over the border illegally and they showed up and that's it. I mean, that's just a fact. I'm not trying to impugn the quality of any, you know me, right? You how I feel about people. Treat everybody the same. Go out of your way to help each It's the whole point, right? Evolve from selfish to selfless, from inward to outward focus. That's what we've been talking about. And that's what we talk about every time in this podcast. So, okay, so, but the point might...

Yes, yes, right. No, absolutely. Right, I'm saying right, exactly. Yes. Exactly. Right.

But that's the point. Let's talk about inward to outward because when we're doing, I believe that when you are being uncivil, you're inward focused. And your point is you have to be outward focused, right?

Absolutely. So let's go back to the point that I think you want to talk about, which is correct, which is the idea of civility and respect. So if you disrespect the person with whom you're about to have a conversation or you're confronted with, then right away you have created an environment that this is not going to work out. Right.

Uh-huh.

If you label them in a certain way, in a negative way, or at least think of them in a negative way, or assume that you have the moral high ground and they don't, it's when you start with that lack of respect, that lack of acceptance for who they are, then the conversation is doomed from the start. And none of us is perfect. We're all going to get it wrong sometimes. God knows I've gotten it wrong about 10 million times. I tell you that all the time. I'm not the leader of the pack at doing things right. But at least I'm educable, right? And I've learned through my career to not... Every time I label somebody like you said, every time I make an assumption about somebody, it's like as God is saying to me, OK, you've done it again, whack! And it'll just smack me across the head and something will happen. to make me realize the error of my ways, right? And I think that's, I don't mind that because I need to, like most, but we need to be straightened out. But I think the idea to respect each other, that sense of... of granting somebody dignity unless they unless they shoot show you that they don't deserve it because they're they're evil or they're violent or whatever. Other than that, most people are not those things. Then if you start out with the assumption that you have an opinion, it could be right. I have an opinion. I could be wrong. You're a human being. You deserve my attention, my care and my respect.

Yes.

Right, I completely agree. That's what we need. that's where the aerial view is so helpful. So I'm back to the aerial view for just a minute. Because when you are in the aerial view and you've removed yourself from the street view, you become the disinterested observer who appreciates that, who then can appreciate all sides of a situation where you no longer have a horse in the race, you no longer remember the team. It's much easier to appreciate exactly what you're talking about, the reason to respect people, to not label them, to not degrade them. You see all moments of time as equal and you see all people as equal. Remember how reality is created. I don't remember how much we've talked about this, but the reason all people are equal is not because I say so. It's because each person contributes equally to the creation of reality. And I'll explain to you again, we'll review this really quickly why that is, because it's a very important point. If somebody makes a decision. They release that bubble into the air that we've talked about. And then their decision intersects with the billions of bubbles coming from everybody else. And it's the interaction and the intersection of these bubbles smashing into each other that creates reality. Each decision, each choice creates a cascade of events that result in outcomes of which we cannot predict. They are completely unpredictable. But each one of those decisions has an effect. So somebody who might be a nobody, you would even spend... even think about for a second can do something or initiate a creative decision that can massively affect your life. Whether it be they're in a car and they weren't paying attention and they hit you on your bicycle. That's a big deal. But it can be a less a lot less severe than that. But every decision by every human being on this earth creates is a bubble that's released and initiates a cascade of events, which then intersects with everybody else's bubble and everybody else's cascade and

Yeah.

That's how reality created. President Trump does not, his decisions actually, believe it or not, are no more important than the decisions of somebody who lives in a small community in rural Ohio. You go, wait a minute, the president can push the button and destroy the world. Yes, but that assumes that there's a preferred outcome from the way the universe or the world should evolve. There is no such preferred outcome. There is no one way the world is supposed to work out. We talked about the cockroach last time who would be thrilled if there was a nuclear war, right? Get rid of the humans, right? So there's no one way for the world to work out. We think there's a certain way we'd like to see it work out, but the universe doesn't behave that way. There is no preferred outcome or chain of events. So when you realize that everybody's decision contributes equally to how the world is going to evolve, to how reality is going to play out, therefore every person counts. You cannot discount any person. You cannot say that person has no worth because that person has the ability to make a choice of decision that will create a cascade of events that will affect millions, if not billions of other people. We're all in together.

But there are some, would you not agree, that are decisions are much more vital than others. Let's talk about, there's, okay, but he can make he, whoever he is, can make a decision that has an impact on millions and millions and millions of people. Let's talk about healthcare. You're a healthcare professional. He can make a decision to that we should not have

I would not agree with that.

vaccines anymore in schools. should, you're okay to let kids come into school without being vaccinated. Okay. So maybe millions of kids are going to come in and spread disease. So he made a decision that has an impact on my children. Isn't he more powerful than I am?

No. because that assumes there's a preferred way for things to work out. And it makes sense. you say, okay, you know, just using the vaccine thing, for instance, I would still, I assume I'll still have the opportunity to, the choice to vaccinate my children. Well, if my children get vaccinated, they're going to be fine no matter who's, no matter how many people aren't vaccinated. It's not, my kids is immunized against measles and polio. They're immunized against measles and polio. If you don't want to vaccinate your kid, I feel badly for your kid. You're making a poor choice for your children, but it's not going to affect my children. But having said that, we think there's a preferred way for things to evolve and the way to work out, things to work out. But there is no such thing. We should talk about this again because we're not going to have enough time today. But let's talk about this next time. It's very important. We assume there's a preferred way for things to work out. But the way the universe works, there is no such thing. That's why every decision is really equal. We need to spend more time on this because it's a very difficult concept to wrap your head around. But suffice it to say for right now, the reason our

We do, yeah.

brought that up is because you just, every person contributes equally to the creation of reality and therefore every person has value, every person has worth, every life is important. You cannot get away from that. That is a fact of the way the universe works. And that gives us even more reason to treat each other with respect. Your decisions do impact my life. The way you live impacts my life. maybe not as obviously and directly as you think, but it does because all these decisions intersect. So for that reason alone, I have to pay attention to you. I have to care about you. I have to respect you. I to listen to you because you do have an impact. Right. So we're all equal and all people are in that sense, important and of value and of worth.

and you have to be civil to me. And so what do we, and then what do we do because we are now face-to-face back to the politics of it all, what do we do when we're in a situation as we are today where our politicians are not being civil to one another and therefore they're not being civil to the rest of us? What do do about that?

Absolutely, right.

So I would say two things. One is you're only responsible for your own behavior, but you're completely responsible for your own behavior. So I can't worry about if my congressman or senator has decided to start cursing. I mean, I'm watching this thinking, are you people kidding me? Why are you doing this? It's so disrespectful to your constituents and it's certainly disrespectful to yourself. You've lowered your own value. I now see you as less of... I don't have the same level of respect to you I had before you started doing this. I don't care if you're Democrat or Republican. What are you doing? You're lowering the bar for society. You're lowering the bar for yourself. This is a terribly stupid idea. Don't do it. So that doesn't mean I have to do it. We talked about language last time. I don't have to behave this way. I don't have to use that language in public. I don't have to treat people rudely. I don't have to insult my... You know, adversaries. Look, do I approve of the way Donald Trump talks to people? Heck no. Of course not. You know that. I don't approve of when anybody talks about people like that. It's just, I don't approve of it. I can't tell him what to He's a grown man. I'm not going to change him for sure. My responsibility is how I behave, not how he behaves. So that's the first thing. Take responsibility for your own behavior. The other thing is, don't vote for people like that, right? Just say, you know what? I'm not gonna put up, I don't care whether you're a Democratic or Republican, you talk like that, you treat people like that, I'm not interested in supporting you.

I won't, believe me.

Amen. I see we have, God, this went fast, didn't it? My goodness. So let me end with, as I usually do, with a quote from your book, which is called, Wisdom from the Aerial View, the Superpower that Can Change Your Life and This World. This is from your chapter on respect. You say, respect is what you voluntarily give others, not what you expect to receive no matter your actions.

super fast for me.

Each of us is responsible for our own behavior. We are never relieved of our responsibility to act ethically and morally, no matter how we are treated by another, no matter how strongly we believe ourselves to be correct and our adversary wrong. Shame on politicians who do not understand and promote this concept. Shame on us as parents and teachers who do not instill it in our children. We need to set the bar high for ourselves and our communities. If we do not aim high, if we fail to set laudable standards of behavior, we will end up with a society in which none of us will wish to live. You got that right. Amen. I'll leave you with the final word.

Yeah. Amen. It's not so hard. Treat each other well. It's not that, know, that golden rule still works, right? And there's a reason for it. And it elevates your own sense of wellbeing, your own self-esteem. You know, if you lower your own level of respect for other people, you're going down the drain also. And that's exactly the opposite direction we wanna take in our lives. Anyway, thank you so much. That was so interesting. You're the best. And thank you everybody for listening. We'll see you next time. Love you too. Bye bye.

It sure does.

You bet.

Thank you.

Thank you, love you, peace.