Episode 29: Quiet Quitting

Good day, welcome to wisdom from the aerial view. The podcast for those who wish to learn how to crush their anxiety and find meaning and purpose in their lives. Good morning, Dr. Klein, how are you Mark?

Hello Enid, it's always great to see you.

and it is great to be seen. We're going to talk today about a chapter in your book that I think you and I are not even going to agree on. It's called Quiet Quitting. So I will read to you your own words from the way you began it. You said, today we turn our attention to another troublesome entity, quiet quitting. Quiet quitting refers to a decision by an employee in any field of endeavor to do the minimum required to get by. It's all about optimizing work-life balance to achieve less stress and more joy. What is the least amount of work I need to do to get by is the question a quiet quitter asks. And so I was thinking to myself, what in the world is quiet quitting? It sounds like Gwyneth Paltrow's uncoupling or whatever, her quiet uncoupling or whatever she talked about. It sounded like a Gwyneth Paltrow kind of thing. So I did some research and I found an article from The New Yorker. from several years ago written by guy named Cal Newport and the name of it is the year in quiet quitting. A new generation discovers what that it's hard to balance work with a well-lived life. He says I'll just read a little bit of this, could. He says quiet quitting is not a life philosophy or policy proposal that needs logical scrutiny. It's also not a political weapon to be willing to prove how much woke or conservative you are than anyone else. It's both more incoherent and essential than all of that. Figuring out how work fits into a life well lived is hard, but it's an evolution that has to happen. Quiet quitting is the messy starting gun of a new generation embarking on this challenge. What matters is that Generation Z is waking up to the fact that the unnatural melding of self and work induced by an adolescence lived within spaces is not sustained and not sustainable. they are finally, thankfully, ready to ask what should come next. So the question that I have is, and he says, you you're not quitting your job, but quitting an idea of going above and beyond. And I guess my issue with that is your vision of quiet quitting and his is different. And mine is different too, because I'm not sure how we balance work and life. Let's talk about that.

Okay, you want to I mean, in telling us how you feel, you said you have an opinion.

I think I just did.

Well, I do. I think that we're baby boomers and then there's millennials and Gen Zs and Gen X and whatever. And we're all looking at the world somewhat differently. And I'm looking at the world now even differently than I used to look at the world. I work with a lot of young people. I need to work with young people. I need to find out what's going on in their life. And I think about civic engagement and what we do beyond work. And just because I don't think we should ever have anybody come to work and not... give it 100%. I agree with you, 1000 % on that. But I think that they can do both. I think that they can look at life outside of the workplace and give it 100 % at work and also 100 % somewhere else. How do you do that? How do you do 200 %? Why not? Why can't we do 200 %?

You've got me so confused at the numbers. I don't know if we were at 100, 200, 1,000%. So you've totally confused me. No, I hear your point. It's a very good point, as always. You know, this idea of quiet quitting, when I wrote that particular chapter, this was several years ago, when it was all over the news, it was in every magazine and so on. And I hear what you're saying about finding the balance, but you know, one of my...

Maybe we're a thousand, yeah.

opinions of the world is that nothing ever changes. And that even though it seems like the current generations or those of us who live in the 21st century seems very different than those who lived in the 16th century or the 4th century, I don't believe that's true. I think that the same rules apply in terms of interpersonal relationships. Obviously, the demands on us were different and we weren't hunting and gathering. We don't hunt and gather now. But in a sense, we still do. Somebody goes to the supermarket and gathers and whatever. Somebody goes to work hunting for more money. the story of human life to me, this is, not everybody has to agree with this, but I feel comfortable with this concept, doesn't really ever change. So we've talked a lot during this podcast on these episodes of What Are Purposes? And we've talked about that. There is a reason we're here, that is to make this evolution from being more concerned with ourselves and less concerned with ourselves towards being more concerned with other people in preparation for whatever might come next. Okay, so where does work fit into that? The same place it always fit into it. You are trying to develop a persona, like I could say a person of substance, become a person of substance. And how do you do that? You do that through your activities, through your efforts, through your accomplishments, many of which happen during the workday. And then of course, equally, if not more so through the relationships you develop over your life. So these are universal themes, they haven't changed. So why should we look at the responsibilities of a Gen Z differently than those of our parents or even us or even our, okay.

I don't think we look at the responsibilities differently. I think the problem with us, the Baby Boomers had sort of loyalty to the organization. And I think younger people don't have that any longer. And I you why, I think a lot of it has to do with this whole virtual reality that we're living in. We do Zoom meetings and we do remote work. And you talk about relationships, it's very difficult to build a relationship over Zoom and over a virtual job. So I think that that's one of the differences between one generation and the next. We didn't live in a world where we had a Zoom meeting. You and I are looking at each other right now on a computer, and we're not in person. So we're missing something that I think is important, that's the human touch, the human value. You don't have it in a digital world. And I think that loyalty to the organization, which we, your parents, my parents, and even us felt, younger people don't have that anymore.

So let's say that you and I were in the same room, which sometimes, you know, we get together, we would be, we are. But I don't believe that our interaction would be one bit different. Before we started this episode, recording this episode, we were talking about political stuff, things that are happening in the world. And as listeners may know, you and I don't agree on everything, but we certainly respect each other and we have no problem with any disagreement we might have.

Exactly.

So as you and I talk here now, quote, virtually, even though we're looking at each other through the magic of this incredible software, recording software, I don't think we're talking, we treat each other one bit different if we are next to each other. The rules are the same. Now, I agree with you. I'm all for in-person work. I think people should be together in offices. I think you lose so much. I'll tell you, I'll tell you one of the things you lose that that's going to sound maybe a little weird. But many people prior to, let's say the Me Too movement met there significant others at work. That was probably the number one place people met. Now, of course, it's then you had COVID. First you had me too, and then people were afraid to say hello to each other. And I remember once I was in my office talking to my group of my techs. I think I've told you I had like 60 people working for me in my particular office, of which 55 I think were women. And we just had a wonderful time. We had just had a fantastic group of people. Enid (07:42.2) Yes.

And I remember one day I walked in, was talking to a specific group of techs who were doing ultrasound, and I told one of them, said, you look terrific today. And somebody said, you gotta be careful, Dr. Klein, I don't think you can say that anymore. I said, well, you do look terrific. I probably can't say you look hot. That I probably can't say, but I can say you look good. And we don't want to get away from that. People feel, you know, and we were all joking because I couldn't say anything to them and they could say anything to me. That's the kind of relationship we had. was no none of this tension that you see nowadays. But. The point was that you don't want to get away from that. I relationships as you and I agree are pretty much everything. So if you can't talk to people and tell somebody they look good or you like something about them, then we lose a lot. So I agree with you. The fact that we haven't been together is a real problem, but it doesn't relieve people of the responsibility to become a person of substance, which means to treat people in the right way, to be

Yes.

not only to be kind and generous and non-judgmental, but to do the best you can in anything you do. And that includes in your relationships. Those responsibilities don't go away because there's a camera in front of you instead of a person. The responsibilities don't change because remember, we do these things for ourselves. at the end of the day, all these things we do are to benefit ourselves, not in a selfish way, but to help us make that evolution to be selfless and less selfish and more selfless, more focused on other people. So that's why we do these things because that's part of our responsibility to make that evolution.

But I don't think, I guess I agree with that 100%. But that's not, I think the point of what is the problem that I'm having is in terms of quiet quitting. I think if someone is in a job and they don't want to give it 100%, they don't love what they're doing, they want to get out of the job. And that's responsibility. So to me, the notion of quiet quitting is that they're not going above and beyond, they ought to go above and beyond. And if they don't want to go above and beyond, that's.

course.

Their responsibility then to the job is to quit the job, not quietly, but just say, I can't do this anymore and go out and get another job.

Right, so I think when you preface this by saying you and I disagree, I don't think we disagree at all. Yes, I think the terminology may be what's holding us up, you know, I think I shared this in the book that my dad, I was, you know, the things we remember, you know, it's amazing the things we remember. I think I told you I remember being in your basement at a party when we were like in seventh grade. God knows why I remember that, but it is so clear to me. Yeah, well, your basement.

No, think we disagree on the terminology. That's what I'm talking about.

That must have been a hell of a basement, telling you, because I don't remember a thing about it.

Yeah, I remember that. You did have a basement, didn't you? And we did have a party down there, didn't we? Yes, we did. Exactly. Okay. I was actually quite surprised you invited me too, because I was not one of the, you I was not sitting at the cool kids table. But anyway, so my dad said to me one day, it's my first job. My first job was when I was 14 years old.

I did have a basement, Lots of parties. But you mean, I'm surprised I invited you.

and we both grew up in New York. In New York in those days, you needed what were called working papers, right? You had to be 14 to get working papers. You couldn't get a job without working papers. So I couldn't wait. Finally at 14, I turned 14, I get my working papers. And my first job was working like in a luncheonette at the beach.

yeah.

And it was an awful job in the beginning. They put me on the grill. Within the first five minutes, I burned my hand. Then eventually I got transferred to the coffee urn. And the coffee urns in those days were these gigantic machines with these huge baskets where you'd pour in loose coffee and hot water was spraying everywhere. I was getting burned everywhere. First it was my hand, then it was my whole body. I mean, it was just terrible. Anyway, I got used to it. But anyway, I remember coming home and... complaining to my, we sitting at the end of the four of us, my sister and I, my parents. We had this tiny little kitchen and a tiny little kitchen table. But we could literally, I mean, you could easily reach across the table to the other side. That's the small the table was. Anyway, so I start lamenting about, you know, I'm a 14 year old lamenting about what's happening at work. and my dad stops me. Oh, and then I said, I said, know, and they're hardly paying me anything, which was true. You know, I think I was getting like 45 cents an hour, something ridiculous, right? Anyway, but I was 14. I mean, I probably wasn't worth a whole lot more than that. But at the time I'm thinking, and I said to my dad, and they're paying me so little and boom, he sat up, looked at me and he said, it doesn't matter what anybody pays you at any time in your life. You are always required to do the best job you can. Okay, I remember that.

Yeah.

I remember that. mean, wow. Now, there had been at least one time in my life where I forgot that rule and I didn't behave properly. And I mentioned that in the book and I've apologized to the person who was involved about a dozen times over 30 years. you know, finally, mostly I got the lesson. And that's the point here. know, quiet quitting shouldn't even exist. Like you said, if you can't give it your all. First of all, it doesn't even matter if you like the job. That's the first point. If you don't like the job, you can't say, I don't like the job, so I'm just going to do a half-baked job until maybe I find something else or maybe I'm even going to bother finding something else. And I'll just stay here and do a half-baked job and get paid and hopefully nobody will catch on. Right. So that's the problem. And the reason it's a problem is that what my dad was trying to teach me is that, well, I think for him it was, your employer, everything you got. But what I decided later in life was that's true. More importantly, I think if you do exercise some manifestation of quiet quitting, the person you're cheating in the long run is yourself. Because that prevents you from becoming a person of substance, prevents you from making this evolution that you have to make in your life. You know, I don't think anybody really wants to think of themselves as lazy, dumb, stupid. You know, nobody really sets out to be that. There are reasons it happens obviously, I don't want to be too critical, but nobody's happy that way. know, the happiest people are people who can succeed and it doesn't matter what you do. I'll tell you an interesting story. a talking to a guy I know who, older guy, and he has one of his hobbies, he's decided... was to be a hobby was to do home repair. He's never done any of this, right? He had no idea how to do it. I said, well, how did you do it? He said, well, YouTube, which of course the answer to everybody these days, he said, I said, make mistakes, but then I figure it out and I correct it and so on and so forth. Okay. And he's telling me about his latest project. One was he wanted to redo two rooms in his home.

He finished the first one and now he's almost done with the second one. And you would think he was telling me that he just finished completing a building a spaceship for Mars. Right? He was so proud of this. Right? And I get it because he went from, don't know anything about this to I'm going to learn about it and I'm going to do it. Then I make mistakes. I'm going to fix it. At the end of it.

Sure.

He felt fantastic. That is true for every activity in life. Whether you're five or 50, it doesn't matter. You know, once you make the effort and overcome the obstacles and have something successful at end, whether it's a room or a cake or a rocket ship, it doesn't matter. enhances your self-esteem, that enhances your self-worth. Great, that's exactly what you need to become a person of substance and start moving along acquiring more accomplishments, increasing your self-esteem, keep going and then moving that helps you move move along your the evolution in your life. So that's why you don't want to quiet quit, you're just cheating yourself. Enid (15:41.4) But you know, talking makes me think of something that's, think, when we're talking about this man, for example, we're talking about an endeavor, but it's a very solitary endeavor. So a lot of the times that we're trying to think about work, cetera, work should be, I think, usually it's a coordinated thing with other people, other folks. We're working together, we work together. When we work, separately. This man is building his own spaceship there. He's building his house. He's doing what he's doing. He's doing it in his own way. He's doing it by himself. He went on YouTube to learn. He did that by himself. So my thought process here is do we quiet quit in a solitary way or do we do it colloquially? In other words, if I'm doing it on my own, it's all about me, me, me, me, me. And that gets back to your whole selfish selfish to selfless. When do we realize or do we ever, go back to my own father, you talk about your father, I'll talk about my father. My father worked six days a week, took Sunday off. He left the house every morning at 7.30, he didn't get back home until I guess about 7.30 at night. He worked in a furniture store. But he was in that store dealing with other people and then on his way to work in Brooklyn, on his way home, he was solitary. And his thought process was, here I am, because I once had a conversation with him, what I'm doing when I get to work is I'm working with other people when I'm on my own in the car, I'm dreaming of other things that I should be doing. So, know, in a way, in a way, he was quiet quitting in the car.

That's okay. I don't think that's quite quitting. I think he was looking for things that would give him maybe more pleasure, more fulfillment, which is, of course, I think we all do that. Look, if you work with a group, so I remember anybody who's worked on a group project either in college or graduate school or high school, anytime, when you work with a group project, let's say there's four people in the group.

Right.

One person will do 80 % of the work, one person will do 10 % of the work, one person will do 5 % of the work, or maybe two people with 10 % of the work and one person will do next to nothing. That is the way most groups work, right? And in an office or any kind of setting, if you have enough people, look, I had a group of, I had 60 employees, but I was part of a group of between 25 and 30 physicians.

Yes.

So we worked independently during the day, seeing patients, doing cases, whatever we were doing. And then of course we were very collegial in sense we shared cases, we asked each other's opinions. Since I was in charge of this particular group office, I arranged a schedule so we could sit down for 20 minutes every day to have lunch, which, you know, otherwise we wouldn't. People would just keep working or whatever. And I wanted us to have that time together. So since I was... You know, in charge, I got to set the schedules. So I set the schedule, said there should be time most days to have 20 minutes to sit down at lunch. And we had a lot of fun and we talked about interesting things. It could be anything. But anyway, so when you're in a group, so in this particular situation, each individual doctor was responsible for his or her and each individual patient's cases. But collectively, we represented an organization. So if one doctor was doing a shoddy job, it reflected very poorly. on the whole group. So what happened? I don't know how, but I was very lucky, but we somehow together developed this group sense of pride that we wanted to be the best group we could. And so everybody, and this is not, I'm not just saying this, it's true. Everybody contributed in their own way. Now I won't say it was equal, because some people just naturally did more than others, it just their personality. But nobody quite quit. Nobody did nothing. Why? They would have been ashamed, because they saw everybody else pulling their weight as best they could. Like I said, not everybody had equal capabilities, but everybody tried in terms of enhancing the value of the practice and providing our patients and referring doctors with the best care we possibly could so that when I was walking, I'd be in DC at a group meeting or a party or wherever it was and somebody would say, what do you do? And I'd tell them, where do you work? And I'd tell them where I'd work and they went, that's a really good place, right? Uniformly, I heard that for years.

But it took the effort of everybody. If we had somebody who quite quit, I'll tell you another interesting story. many, many years ago, we hired, we would hire people periodically as we grew the group. Because when I joined, I was like number eight. We grew up, got near 30 over time. So we'd hire somebody. There was a certain period of time before they could become a full member of the group. You know, they got paid well and along the way and and we get raises each year, but they weren't going to become a permanent member of the group. until maybe four or five years, whatever it was. And we expected them to earn that privilege by going above and beyond the words used before. And there was, I remember there's a particular guy who I liked very much, nice guy. But, and I told him what he had to do. I said, just find anything you're interested in, get really good at it. Because the more expertise we have in the practice, the better for everybody, the better for our patients, the better for the practice, etc. And after four or five years, he didn't do it. And he was stunned when the group decided not to keep him on. And I was sad, although I agreed, because I liked the guy. You can't have a situation, you can't be successful when you feel like some people just don't want to pull their weight. They don't want to contribute. Again, it doesn't have to be equal, but everybody has to be trying because that raises the level of the entire organization, whether it's a medical practice or nonprofit like you run, whatever. That's what you want. That's what you need. And if you set the temperature of the group or the culture, that's the right word, if the culture of the group of people is that we strive for excellence. If that's the culture, then everybody can be proud of that, can feed into that, and that's where the group really helps. That's where it's much harder individually. Everybody has to believe it.

But everybody has to believe in it too, don't they? They have to believe, right? You have to believe in the culture, you believe in the goal, the end result. You have to believe in the end result. And if the end result is something that you believe in, I think, then you give it your all. But if you don't, and this is where it gets back to, if you don't, and it's easy for me to say, but then leave, then leave the practice, leave the job, leave the nonprofit. Those of us in the nonprofit world, look at, I look at it maybe a little differently than you do, except.

Okay.

for the end result, your end result. You know, everybody who worked in your practice knew what the end result was. It treating the patient with dignity, respect, and ultimately make, hopefully get them healthier. And obviously, maybe mine too. So I think that's what it's about. if you're not happy with what you're doing, don't quiet quit, quit.

100%. So I don't think there's any difference between what you did. You've run some big organizations. And what was your experience? Is it any different than the way, than what I was describing in mine?

I have.

No, no, was not at all, except that we had a good mix of older people, younger people. But when I would hire someone to come in to work for my organization, I only asked them, the first question was, what do we do here? And what's your role here? What do you see your role to be? And how much of a difference can you make here? And It was all about making a difference. mean, which is a sort of a, you know, highfalutin kind of thing, but it's the same, right? And I think it should be the same if you work at Walmart. What's the ultimate goal? Yeah, yeah.

No, it's same thing.

100%. But here's the reason. So you got somebody at Walmart, let's say, and let's say they're making minimum wage, and whatever the minimum wage is in that particular jurisdiction, it doesn't matter. Let's say they're getting, let's just pick a number. Let's say they're making $15 an hour, okay? I think, I'm gonna guess we would agree. I don't wanna put words in your mouth.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

For me, whether you're making $15 an hour or 45 cents an hour like I was in the luncheonette at the beach getting burned, or whether you're making significantly more income as a CEO of an organization or a physician or a lawyer or whatever you are, right? The rule doesn't change. And here's the reason why. Because somebody would say to you, oh, you make 10 times what I make or five times what I make. Why should I put in the same effort?

night.

Well, some people might say, well, if you want to get to my level, that's what it takes, right? You got to build up, you got to learn, you have to have experience, have to increase your value to the organization. And so, you you're basically, it's sweat equity, basically, you're paying in by spending this time. That's what I answer. But that might not work, and maybe especially for this generation. But here's what should work, because this is the end of the day, the truth. You don't do it as much. You do do it for the organization, you do do it for the other people. But at the end of the day, the big beneficiary is going to be you because then that's how you become a person of substance. That's how you make your evolution in your life. That's how you look in the mirror and say, I like who I am. I'm proud of who I am. I went to work today and I gave it everything I had. And I helped my coworkers and I helped people who in need, in your case, know, the hungry or the homeless, whatever, the elderly. I helped these people. Okay. And you look in the mirror and you don't say to yourself, how much money did I make today? Very few people think like that. They'll go, wow. I made an impact today. Or my boss said, you did a great job. Or a coworker said, wow, I love the way you did that. I'm so impressed. And then it's when you go home and you're looking at the mirror and you go, I had a good day. Not that you made 15 times eight, it's not even $120. It's that you did these things that make you feel better. And that's what it's about, that the acquisition of self-esteem comes from accomplishments. It comes from doing things of value. And it doesn't really matter what they are, as long as you're giving it your all. So the reason why quitting is so ultimately stupid is because you're shooting yourself in the foot, right? So yeah, it's not fair to your co-workers, it's certainly not fair to the organization or your boss, whatever, or your clients, all those things are true. But at end of the day, the person you are damaging the most is yourself. And the converse, by giving it all you can every day,

I'm not telling people that they have to work 15 hours a day and starve themselves and never see the sunshine. I'm not talking about that. But while you're there, if you give it your best effort, then that's how you go home and you feel good about yourself. That's what it's about. And at the end of the day, that's why we're here. We have to make that evolution. You won't do it without having that sense of accomplishment and self-esteem.

think a lot of younger people today are not unlike we were. We grew up, we were college students in the 60s, that great turbulent period of our history. And that's what's happening again today. I think a lot of younger people are finding their value outside of work. Maybe they're finding it on the picket line. Maybe they're finding it working in a homeless shelter. Whatever they're finding their value, I believe is probably not necessarily in the workplace. but outside the workplace and therefore, and I'm extrapolating, but therefore I think they are quiet quitting at work because they're finding more of their value or their purpose outside of work.

Well then, I'm with you, then get another job. Go work for a non-profit. Go work for a political party, right? Whatever. If that's where you're getting your juice from, then fine, great. And give it your all for that organization. And really, it doesn't matter, how can I put this?

Amen.

Right.

The goal may not be at the end of the day, you might look back on the project you working on or the goal 20 years later and go, oops, I got that one wrong. But it doesn't matter, right? The point is you're giving it your all and you're through your efforts, you're enhancing your self-esteem. That's great. But if you don't like it, it doesn't mean that when you're at work, you can just do little because it's a big mistake for all the reasons we just mentioned.

Definitely. I couldn't agree with you more. And I do think they have to go do what they feel they need to do. I love this generation. Sometimes I don't, but most of the time I do. In fact, I sort of feed off of it. just, their energy comes back to me in an office situation and I feel good about it.

because you see yourself the way you were at that age, because that's what you were, because you always were committed and always were dedicated. The idea of quiet quiet. I thought about it. was going to mention that the other day, but I was a little worried about it. But you know, but that's I think that's what appeals to you, because that's how you looked at the world and how you still look at the world. All right.

Maybe that's right. Or maybe that's right.

Probably should be committed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it does. I do, I do, I do, I do, absolutely. And I look, I'm looking, now I'm looking at the world, I'm looking at the clock. So I'm gonna end, I'm gonna let you say the last words, but I wanna read something in your, again in this chapter that I kinda like. You said, the new mantra is to live your best life. It's not clear what those who embrace quiet quitting dream to be their best life, but whatever it is, it doesn't appear to be centered around work. You say that and I think you're right. I think it's about maybe not work in the workplace, but work outside. they view that as, maybe there's a question of what's the difference between a career and a job? Maybe that's it.

You know, I don't think there's a difference between a career and a job. It doesn't matter. Just give it your all every day. know, just do, do make, because you just remember you want to be proud of who you are. You cannot be proud of who you are if you're quiet quitting. If you're giving half as much as you should, you will never feel good about yourself. So give it all you can. If the job isn't for you, like you said, find another one. But while you're there for the benefit, not only of your employer, not only of your coworkers, certainly you owe it to them and not only to your clients. or patients, whoever they might be, right? Like you don't want a nurse quiet quitting, right? You don't want a doctor quiet quitting. And I've seen it happen. It's wrong. But at the end of the day, you have to do it because that's what's going to make you a person of substance. That's what you're here for. That's what you have to do. Don't quiet quit. Like I said, at end of the chapter, I think soar loudly.

Yes, you did. You did say that. And I agree with that. If I have something on my wall in my office and in my house, and it's from Emile Zola, it if you ask me what I came to this world to do, I will tell you I came to live out loud. I end in that way. I end that way and I will quietly quit this broadcast today. I thank you. I thank everybody for listening. Thank you for the wonderful emails and notes we're getting. We appreciate it. tell our listeners here where they can write to us.

Here you go.

You

You can send an email to question at wisdom from the aerial view.com and we look forward to hearing from you. Thank you, Enid, for another great discussion. Love you. Thank you, everybody, for listening. See you next time.

Thank you. Thank you, my friend. Be well. Peace.