Episode 25: What is success?

Good afternoon, good morning, good evening, and welcome to Wisdom from the Aerial View, the podcast for those who wish to learn how to crush their anxiety and find meaning and purpose in their lives. Today I want to talk about success. Success is not measured by what you achieve, but by the obstacles you overcome. In your book, Mark, and hello Mark, how are you today?

Hello, Enid. Good to see you.

Good to be seen, I'm telling you that. Anyway, in your book you have a chapter that's called...

By the way, everybody should know that when we say that, we're actually looking at each other and we actually like each other. So it's easy to say that. Yes, yes. Sorry to disappoint you.

Is that who I've been looking at? for goodness. I thought it was Mr. Magoo. don't know. Yeah, well, well, then I'll just turn back back. Anyway, in your book, you have a chapter that's called What's Your Job? You talk about being a doctor and how much you love that job. More important, you explain why you love that job. You said, and I'll quote, what I love about the job is that I have the chance to make a positive difference in someone else's life every day.

You

I love that. But I wanted to talk to you about if that equates to being a success in life and what in fact does success mean, how do we measure it and who indeed does the measuring.

Can you repeat those questions in order, please? No, I'm just kidding.

No, I cannot because I've been looking at your face and now I'm a little bit nauseated here. So I'll be right back. Yeah. markekleinmd (01:37.2) I'm so sorry. I need a body double. I think that would help. Yeah. No, actually, it wouldn't help me the same thing. I need somebody who looks better. But anyway, we must continue in a serious vein. So what constitutes success? Is that what you asked me? And who measures it? Right.

That's not a bit of a...

Yeah, you talk about what's your job. And so usually when we think about a job, we think about are we successful in the job and all that. So while your chapter on what's your job didn't really talk about success, to me, what you've done in your career has been a success. How do I judge that? Because you've helped people, you've made a difference. So the question to you is, Do we equate what's your job with being successful at that job?

So these are, I think they're probably a little different. So, but we'll start with what you asked me, which is what's success? You know, it's a really important question because I was just actually today watching some graduation commencement speeches. It sounds like a strange way to spend a couple of hours, but I'll tell you why I did. was reading the Wall Street Journal. I read the Wall Street Journal and...

Yeah. Yeah.

among other things, and one of the sports writers gave a commencement speech at the University of Wisconsin. He's a funny guy. So I actually watched that. And then he referenced, I think he referenced Roger Federer's commencement speech at Dartmouth University last year. I went, well, that should be interesting. So. I spent about 45 minutes, maybe not that much, but watching these two commencement speeches. I wasn't really preparing for our talk this morning, but it turns out they were really good preparation because they really made you think about that. I'll talk about Roger Federer. People say, he's an athlete and he's probably in his early 40s now, one of the best tennis players ever, and also recognized as a super good guy.

See?

But he talked, he explained to his graduates about that, about what success is, and he gave them a few rules. You know, one of them is nothing's easy. You have to work for everything. He people used to say to me that it looks like I'm effortless on the tennis court. And I do try, I did try to be effortless on the tennis courts, he said, but that's because there was a ton of work to get me to that point. That's a very important thing, especially in this environment now in our society where younger people are I think they're having a difficult time figuring out what the heck they're supposed to do with their lives in the era of AI and all the things that are happening, all this cultural stuff, all the social media. We don't need to go into that because that's really not what we're supposed to talk about in this podcast. But all these things have an effect on these young people. so they're wondering, what do I do? What is success? Why do I need to learn to write? ChatGPT can write everything for me. Why should I learn to do math?

All

calculator or that same chat GPT can do all the math for me at the highest level possible, right? I know, I'm thinking how did I get through Shakespeare? mean, I remember that was a challenge for me. I'm why don't they just write this in regular English, can't they? Just, you know, anyway. So it is tough. So what is success? What are you supposed to do? Well, the first thing is think Roger Federer hit the nail on the head, which is not a new thought, but it's good to remind people that

Now you tell me, I needed that in school.

Yeah.

Effort is everything because success really, at the end of the day, is did you complete your mission? We talk a lot about our mission. At least I talk about it you nod a lot. To make that evolution from selfish to selfless, it would add to focus, to being a person of substance, to helping as many people as we can. If that's the mission, which I really believe it is, we're going to get back to that I'll tell you about it. thought I had last night. But if that's the mission, then everything we do should be aimed at completing that mission. In other words, all our efforts or the majority of efforts should be focused on how do I complete that mission. So when you're moving along in your life and you're making choices about what you want to do and so on, especially in careers and moving towards success, it's very helpful to keep in mind, okay, what is the goal? What is the mission? If the mission is to make as much money as possible, which is a lot of people's missions, then you're going to act in a way that maximizes that probability. Sometimes that might not be the nicest way to behave. We know a lot of rich people and some of them are really good people, but a lot of them also have been tough and maybe not shown the kind of empathy or consideration of others that you and I might prefer to see, which is why neither one of us is rich. If that's your goal, you're going to act away. as we've said, gaining wealth or fame or power cannot be the goal of life, the mission of life, because they all go to zero the minute you die. The only thing that's left behind is the effect you've had on other people. And that's how we know that the mission is really to do as much as you can to help as many other people. And along the way, by doing that, you're preparing yourself for what comes next. So I think when you look in terms of success, it's very helpful to remember that everything you do should be focused on completing that mission, to making you a person, I've said this before, a person of substance.

honesty, integrity, things we'll, we've talked about, we will talk about again at length, I'm sure in the future. So that's what I think success is, know, moving towards the completion of your mission. And maybe you'll be, maybe you'll get famous along the way, maybe you'll get rich. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not telling people not to do it, but that should be the, the after effect, not the mission itself.

So that's your job.

That's your job. Right. And when you think about it, that's very helpful because it's not you don't have to have a title of lawyer, doctor, Indian chief. Can you say Indian chief anymore? Probably not. But we used to say that growing up. You don't have to be the CEO of a corporation. You don't have to be the best athlete in the world.

Mm-hmm.

You know, these are not requirements for success, right? They're fine and it's great. And if you work hard and you have the talent and you make the commitment, that's what Roger Federer said, by the way. He you know, have talent, but what made me as successful as I was was not just talent. It's that I worked and I worked and I worked. And he talked about how he had a very famous match with Rafael Nadal. I think it was in 2008, he said. I might be wrong on the year. I think that's right. Finals of Wimbledon. And Roger Federer had won five Wimbledon titles in a row. He was going for his sixth. And now he's playing Nadal, who's obviously one of the best players in the world in history, probably also. And the first point he lost to Nadal and the first set he lost to Nadal. And he just kept looking at Nadal singing in a sense that, you he's better than me. My time is probably over. And he thought that way through the first two sets, both of which he lost. And then he said, wait a minute, I'm the five time reigning Wimbledon champion. I'm one of the best tennis players ever. And then he got back on the horse and started playing the right way and he won the next two sets. And then there's a tiebreaker and he lost in the set. He's lost in the tiebreaker of the fifth set. So he said, you know, that was a very hard thing, but he actually learned. He said, I learned a lot from Rafael Nadal during that match. Imagine that, right? He remembers what he learned from that match about not giving up, by persevering, by working hard. You these are the things that are important for everybody. You cannot have success in any arena of your life.

Yeah.

without doing that. It is impossible. It's not real success. You might win for five minutes. Maybe you win a lottery. I don't know, but you're not gonna become a person of substance if you don't really work hard for a long, long time.

Yeah, so in your whole chapter on what's your job. So tell me about why you framed it in that way. mean, it's a great chapter. Tell me about why you talked about it as your job and what is your job? Is your job to be a success? Is your job, was Federer's job in that instance to learn as opposed to his job wasn't necessarily to win the match, although he wanted to do that. But I think What you're implying is that his job was more important than just winning. It was also learning.

His job, I think, and I don't want to put words in Roger Federer's mouth, although I would love to meet this guy. I've always been very impressed by him. He's so measured and cool in so many ways. mean, what a guy.

Sure.

Yeah, it's because he wears a Rolex, but yeah.

That's problem. You know, after this, we're going out and getting us some Rolexes.

Yeah. What could be bad, right? Yeah.

So yes, think he realized, and he even said he's in his early 40s and he said to the graduates, you're graduating, but I just graduated a few years ago. I graduated from tennis and you graduated from college and now we're both in the same boat. Now what do we do? So what is his job going forward? And he mentioned very simple things, takes care of his kids, drives them to school, vacuums the house. People probably were stunned to hear that Roger Federer is vacuuming his house, but I wasn't surprised by that.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's part of his job, isn't it? It really, it is, that's part of the job. Yeah, yeah.

It's part of our job, right? It's part of the job. I don't mind doing any of those things. I wash a lot of dishes, I think I've mentioned that. At any rate, I would be always happy to come and do your dishes. Anyway, getting back to Roger Federer's job was just, I mean, his mission in that particular minute was to win the match and he didn't, but he recognized that there's a bigger mission in life.

Yeah, yeah. You want to come to my house and do a couple? Because I, you know, I... Thank you, thank you.

And this is what we've talked about. you know, the reason I wrote that chapter, What's Your Job? is just to get to the summary is that in fact, when you think about it, we all have the same job. People would say, no, no, no, you're a doctor, you have a different job, you got to help people and diagnose them and help them get treated. Or they might look at you and say, no, no, you've been CEO of major corporations. mean, you're the real deal. I mean, you've given lectures, you've done all these things. You're very well known in your field. Now, no, we all have the same job. Our job is to help as many people as we can. So we might do it in different venues. You have fed people, you care for elderly people. I've cared for patients. But at the end of the day, when you leave your office, and when I leave my office, we don't stop helping people. We don't stop. be feeling responsible for doing what we can. It's a, you know, every waking moment you should at least have in the back of your mind that I need to remember to help as many people as I can in any way I can. You know, sometimes we, friend will ask for something and we'll say, we'll think about it yeah, we really want to help. But, you know, I got this, I got to go somewhere and I got to go meet somebody or I made plans to go to the movies or whatever. And this generally a pretty good reason, pretty legitimate, or I have to go to work, have a project, do whatever that you really at that moment, you know, can't help that person. And sometimes you really can't. But a lot of times you could, you just have to change your priority and change the circumstances and say, I'm going to put off X, so I can help this person. You know, if we have the mindset that we're here to help people, then that comes to your mind very quickly. Instead of saying, gee, you know, I'd like to help, but I can't. as your first reaction, it should be, okay, what can I do to change my schedule or whatever so that I can help? Sometimes you can't. Sometimes you've committed to something professionally, personally, you just can't. There's nothing you can do. But a lot of times you can. But if your first thought is how do I get out of this instead of how do I make it happen, there's a difference there. So we all have the same job in that it doesn't matter whether you're a plumber or an electrician, a teacher.

It doesn't matter. I think I've told you the story. I had two gentlemen in my house last week doing some replacing some floors. And they were from Central America, actually father and a son. And I think I've told you, when people come to my house to do some work, A, they always get... Unless they don't want coffee, I always get a cup of coffee, generally try and feed them something. But I just like getting to know them. And I never could do that when I was working full time. I would leave the house at six o'clock and get home at six o'clock. I wasn't talking to people who work in my house. I wasn't home. But now I'm doing a lot more work from home. So I have the chance. And so, you know me, I'm always interested in people and what they're doing and learning about them and These two guys from Central America, was really an excellent chance to get to know them. So we ended up, this is going to sound crazy, but they were here for eight days and we had lunch together every day. My wife and I, or least one of us, and those two guys, and had lunch every day. And those guys never have lunch, right? But we sat down and I said, you know, just take your time, you know.

Mm-hmm

And I was fascinated about their lives and how they came to the United States and what they had to go through. And it was really, it was really, and I learned so much. the, but the, but the best part is I love these guys. We, we became friends. And then I felt, you know, responsible. That sounds the wrong word. I wanted to help them in any way I can. I mean, they came to my house. They did a, they did a lot of work, a lot of hard work. hard work that I really couldn't do. And I was very appreciative. They did a fantastic job. But the fact that they did this, it was very physical and very difficult. And I really, at this point in my life, couldn't do it. I'm not sure I ever could have done it, to be honest. But anyway, the point was, I got to know them. We got to know each other. I thought we were going to cry on the day they left. They'll come back. But the point is, so I felt, OK, I know these people now. I have a responsibility to them. So.

you

they should know, and they know this, that if they need help on something that I can help them with, I mean, can't fix floors, but I can do other stuff, especially medical stuff, I'll help them. So it's not that, how can I describe this? I didn't even feel like it was my job because it's become so ingrained to be able to meet people and help people. And it becomes a pleasure to do that job.

Right.

Well, so here's the question that so is it interchangeable then your job and your mission? In other words, it's really the same thing in the way you look at it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Right, right.

It's same thing. That's why I phrase it that way. What's your job? It's your mission, right? It's your mission. And it is so easy to get distracted from our mission. I mean, life is hard. you know, I'm at the point in my life where I now I'm on a second, I'm on a new career doing some other things that you know about in addition to the podcast. So I'm not seeing patients directly anymore, although I will do some stuff, but not like I did before. And so I have the opportunity now to think a bit more, reflect a little more. And I'm not quite as pulled as I used to be every single day when I had no free time ever. And so it's easier for me to now to to view these things in a little, like I could call the aerial view, to see it in their context. And once you realize that we all have the same mission, that we're all here to make that evolution, that we're all preparing, then it changes the way you see everything else. So it affects everything you do. So let's talk about work. Right? you know, young people these days, some young people, there's still plenty of people who work hard and want to achieve the best, as much as they can. But, you know, we read a lot. There's a lot of kids who say, you know, what's the point? Why am I even bothering to do this? You know, the baby boomers have ruined the planet for us. You know, those kind of things. And yet, of course, the reason they should do it is because that's how they fulfill their mission. That's how they make that evolution. should, you know, doing it by helping other people and doing the best you can. The greatest beneficiary is yourself. That's the reason to do it, right? That's what they don't understand. Don't do it for me. Don't do it for the boss. You know, do it for you because when you do your job in the proper way, no matter what the job is, giving it as much as you can, doing it as well as you can, helping as many people along the way as you can, then you're moving forward on your mission. You can't lose. And so if you keep that in mind all the time, that your job is your mission, it's very helpful, I think.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And the job doesn't necessarily only mean, and your mission doesn't only necessarily mean going to the office and performing something that you do every day. In other words, you're looking at it in a larger sense, aren't you? What is your job doesn't necessarily mean the thing you do nine to five every day, because your mission doesn't happen necessarily nine to five every day. You're looking at it in a bigger context, aren't you?

Well, me was more like 6.45 to 6 p.m. That's probably why. No, I'm just kidding. But yes, you're 100 % right. The mission doesn't stop the minute you leave your work. So I'll tell you another story. people have already figured out, people who know me or certainly have been listening to these episodes, have kind of figured out that I truly am on a mission like you are. And

Which is probably why you lost all your hair and I've got a full head of hair, cause yeah.

Right, right.

And as you said, it never stops. So I think I recount the story in the book somewhere about maybe in this chapter where I walked into a Verizon store one day because I had a problem with my phone or I forget what it It something very simple. I knew it wasn't going to take a long time, but I had to go there personally. So I walk into this Verizon store and there's a person in front of me. That person gets taken care of. And then I walk up to the desk and there's a young woman behind the desk. And of course, she doesn't look up at me. She doesn't say a word. And I'm just standing there. a few years earlier, my blood pressure would have gone up. My head would have started flapping up and down because the pressure had built up so high. And who knows? But luckily, I superseded that point in my life. And I waited patiently. And finally, she looked up and said, yes, can I help you? Something like that. And I told her what the problem was and she helped me and we got done in three minutes. It didn't take very long. And then I didn't move. And I said, can I share something with you? And she looked up and she was pretty, I would say she was, I'm going to guess she was in her early twenties. And she looked up like, uh-oh, what's this customer going to say? Cause I'm sure she gets a boatload of crap every day. You know, it's a Verizon store. People are always pissed off in a Verizon store. So,

Mm-hmm.

Sure.

I said, look, I said, I walked in, I stood here, you you didn't look up at me, you didn't say a word. I said, now I'm not mad. I said, but I'm going to, I just want to tell you something and this is for you, not for me. I said, I'm fine. I said, but when a customer comes in, if you just, as soon as they isn't there, if you just pick up your head and say one of two things, hi, how are you? Or if you're busy, say, I'll be, just let me finish one thing I have to finish. I'll be with you in one second. Just do one of those two things and now you're off on the right foot. And it's in the reasons you should do this is not for the customer. The reason you should do this is for you because I guarantee you will feel so much better. First of all, the customer will immediately give you the benefit of doubt. Smile. Now you've befriended that customer. He or she knows you're on their side. That's number one. Number two is, so they're going to be happier. And as they're happier, their interaction with you is going to be better. And then you might find something out about them. You might have a mutual friend. You might have an interesting hobby together. You don't know what it is, right? You have no idea, but you will make a connection. When you make that connection, your life clicks up a notch. It automatically gets better because as you know, we've talked about relationships are everything. Once you ignite that relationship, you don't know where it's going to go. It might go nowhere, but That person will feel better and a hundred percent guarantee you will feel better. And that's going to make your day a lot better. And if you keep doing it, your day is going to be great. Every day is going to be great. And you're going to run into a customer who's going to be super nasty and you'll do your best job and you won't be able to fix them. But then it's their problem. Don't make it your problem. Right. So if you do this little thing, it's going to make you feel better. And that's why I'm telling you this. And that was it. So this woman, young woman who had this grumpy look on her face the moment I walked in, her whole head lit up.

What'd she say? What'd she say?

Her whole head looked like it was a neon sign, gigantic smile, her eyes were smiling. And she was just grateful, I think, that somebody cared enough about her to spend two minutes not yelling at her and not telling her, need to do this, but telling her something that hopefully will help her in the future. Because I had no other goal. I didn't need anything from me. I didn't need her to do anything for me. I just felt obligated. to do that little bit, because I knew I could do something to help her on this day and hopefully many days going forward in two minutes. I knew it would make a difference. And so that's my job. That's my job and my mission.

Right, and your mission. So let's get back then to the point, it is your job, it is your mission, which is an interchangeable notion. So what is success then? Was the success that her head lit up, that she understood, and that you think that will change her? And will that, you think, change the trajectory, if you will, of her own mission? Maybe she'll start thinking in a different way. And is that part of what makes your success successful?

Well, what made my success was that her head lit up with this gigantic smile. because, okay, great. know, mission accomplished. I mean, I took a person who was grumpy and unhappy, probably not crazy about where she was, probably had no control over most of her day, had to have... And then, know, people, I'm sure you people are yelling at her all the time, right? So, you know...

Right, right.

Right.

That's kind of like me every week. You do that, you take a grumpy person and make a, okay, yeah. I'm sure, I'm sure.

I made her feel a little better. I don't think I, I probably didn't change her whole life, but who knows, but I definitely changed her day. Right. And that's a success. And, I told you, it's like a drug. You know this. It's like a drug. You can't stop doing it because every time you help somebody, you feel great. And I always say it's a little bit selfish because you feel so great. You feel like you're stealing, right? Like,

Yeah. And it changed yours too, didn't you? It made you feel really pretty good, didn't it? Yeah.

Yeah.

So, but how did you, you mentioned that in the past you would have been sort of, your blood pressure would have gotten gone crazy, et cetera, et And then all of sudden you don't do that anymore. You weren't about to yell at her. You said that to her. said, I'm not mad. I'm not. How did you go from that to this?

That's a really good question. The way you go from that is to understand your role in the world. If the camera is focused on you, she's ignoring me. She's treating me badly. But that had nothing to do with me. This was all about her. She was probably in her head, she's probably thinking, I need a mental break. God, another guy is going to yell at me. This is so stressful, one after the other. That's what she's probably thinking.

Mm-hmm.

I didn't know. So right away, instead of me being the victim, right, I realized I'm not a victim. I'm fine. Okay. It's about her. I know she's having a tough time. Otherwise, she'd be smiling. If she was having a good day, she loved her job and everything was great. And the last 10 customers told her how beautiful she was. She wouldn't look like that. But clearly, that's not what happened.

Yeah.

I just by looking at her, I know, okay, she's not having a great day. Maybe she doesn't have a great week. Maybe she's having a great life. I don't know. But clearly this has nothing to do with me. That's a mistake people make. If you walk into a place and the receptionist or the hostess or whatever it is, or the guy who's in charge doesn't look up at you, it's not about you. It's about them. It tells you something about what's going on in their life. And that, and the way you know this is when you say nice things to them and treat them kindly and they get this gigantic smile and their head lights up like a neon sign. You realize you were right. It was about them. And now you've done a good deed. So that's it. Do as many good deeds as you can, help as many people. Little tiny things, tiny, tiny things make a difference. And then it gets, as you said, you just feel fantastic. Huge success. I feel great. Who walks out of a Verizon store, I don't remember what I went for.

Yeah.

And then that's a success. Yeah.

But I felt great when I worked out because I said, okay, this young woman is going to have a better day. that's a great thing. I helped her. I hardly did anything. And as a doctor, you get to do that all day long. I mean, it's one if you're willing to take the time. You know, I know doctors are busy. I know health care workers are busy. I get it. I've been there. I've worked in hospitals. I told you I was at the lowest level.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.

at least, know, a nursing assistant level, lowest level in the hospital. I've been a physician, I've been a medical student, I've been a resident, I've been a physician. Senior physician, I've done all the jobs, right? I've been in hospitals, I know what it's like, right? So putting yourself in the position of other people is very helpful to look, we talked about this before, crawl into their head, look out through their eyes, listen through their ears. It's not about you. If you stop making the world about you and you start making it about everybody else, two things will happen. One is you're going to feel better and you're going to start having a positive impact on the world. And you have a positive impact on somebody. What do you think that young woman did when she got home or had a conversation with another coworker or another customer or when she got home? What do you think happened? She probably took some of that good will feeling and passed it along somewhere. Good things happen when you do that. That's the mission. That's the job. Even people say, well, it's easier for you. You're a doctor. You were successful. You were this. No, I've been poor. I've been lonely. I've been sick. I've been all those things. We all go through the same stuff. Some worse than other, I agree. I wasn't a hostage in Gaza. That's true. So I don't want to say that my life is equivalent to people who have gone through serious trauma. But the point is that

Mm-hmm.

that if you stop focusing on yourself and you turn the camera around, good things are going to happen to you and good things are going to happen to other people. That's your job. If you always focus on that. And that's the message from the area of view. That's what you see from the area of view. The story of everybody's life is the same in it. Century after century after century, the story never changes. The set changes. It's all about relationships and things that we go through as human beings, making our evolution, making that journey. There's nothing new under the sun. You're not inventing anything. You're not feeling an emotion nobody's felt before. You're not undergoing a crisis nobody went through before. It's all happened before a billion times and it's going to happen again a million times. just remember, it's not about you. It's your job to turn the camera around and to focus on other people.

Wise words. Wiser words have never been spoken. But you know, I have to tell you, when I was doing some research for the podcast and I was looking into this notion of measuring success, and it was kind of interesting because most of it points to business metrics. What's the success in business? How much money do you make? How many widgets the company has produced, et cetera, et But there's one thing that really stuck with me and it's what You mean by what's your job. It says success, and I wonder who wrote this doc. Success should be measured by our impact on others. The memories we have created and the personal development we have experienced. Success isn't just about how much you have or what you've achieved. It's about how you live your life and your impact on those around you. You said it. I buy it. I agree with you. Amen.

You know, I don't remember writing that. I was going say, that sounds good. I wonder who wrote that.

with somebody who had a lot more hair than you must have at the time, I But but this is fun. This is great. We've been getting lots of emails and text messages Keep it up write to us. Let us know what you think. We want your ideas. What your opinions? We want you to tell us how good I am and mark needs some improvement No, this has been this is a great experience for us. We're having a good time We hope that we're spending some time with you and you're thinking about some of the things that that mark has

god, probably.

you

written in this book and talked about on this podcast and to make our lives sort of less nerve-racking, less anguished. And I thank you for that. So we've run out of time, but I always leave you the final word. What have you got to say, Doc?

I would say that when in doubt, turn the camera around. Stop thinking about yourself, think about other people. And no matter where you are in your life, in what age, what position, what situation, you're always going to feel better. So that's how we leave today. So thank you, Enid, for another great 30 minutes. I love this, and I love you, and thank you everybody for listening.

Thank you.

I love you too. Peace.