Episode 18: Why Being Right Is Overrated

Welcome to Wisdom from the Aerial View, the podcast for those who wish to learn how to crush their anxiety and find meaning and purpose in their lives. It's for those who imagine a world with less contentiousness and more harmony. It's a place to come for a dose of optimism and 30 minutes of tranquility. Learning to access the aerial view has changed lives. You know what? It just might change yours. On today's podcast, we're going to explore a topic that's actually in the book written by Dr. Mark Klein, which ironically has the same title as this podcast. How silly is that? You call the chapter, Being Right is Overrated. So I read it. And then it got me thinking and it took me to an article published by Forbes in 2023 entitled, ironically enough, Being Right is Overrated by G.T. Stancil. Much like you, he says, I'm gonna quote what he says. He says, leaders understand that being right is overrated. In fact, when you're a leader, if you are always right, you may end up hurting those around you and cause harm to your organization. When you're the one who's always right, over time, you demoralize and demotivate those around you. Okay, doc, what say you?

Well, I haven't read that article, but it comes at it, it sounds like from a different perspective. Yeah, because we're not here talking about leaders, we're talking about everybody. Because what this podcast is for, you and I have decided a while ago, is that we just want to make as many people's lives better as we can and hopefully along the way improve our communities. That's the point. That's why we're doing this, besides the fact that we're having a great time.

It comes out of It does.

That's why we're doing this, besides the fact we're having a great time. Yeah, but you know, let me go back because in a way, it is about leadership because if one leads in the right direction, then people will follow. If I was right, we'll talk about that. you know, and there's another question that we really could just explore at great length and that is about leadership. so the reason I wanted to talk about that particular article was because I was intrigued by the notion of being right on all different levels. So. It is, to my mind, lot about leadership too. So I just didn't want to let that go.

Well, you don't let anything go. So the reason I think you like that is because you have been a leader for so long, you've run organizations and this probably hit a tone for you that was appealing. And I will, since our listeners should know that you never tell me in advance what we're going to talk about or what you're going to say. So, which makes it more fun, obviously. I would like to read that article at some point when we're done and you can share it with me.

Never. Never.

That's right. I would like to read that article at some point when we're You know, right nowadays, we talk about this all the time, that there's such contentiousness in our...

Right nowadays, and we talk about this all the time, there's such contentiousness in our society, in the whole world, but let's just focus on our country for a little bit because it's so obvious. We see it on the news, we read about it, we hear about it. Even right now, it seems we're always now in the middle of some political firefight. I guess that really got to be exaggerated once Donald Trump came on the scene eight years ago or so, but it's probably been around for quite a long time. And it's very painful for people. I mean, you can't talk to people with whom you disagree so easily anymore. I mean, I can, but I have found that people just don't want to, either they don't want to talk about politics, which is great with me. I'm fine with that, as you know. Or nobody says what they really think because they're afraid of either Enid (03:14.9) Mm-hmm.

hurting some of these feelings or probably more importantly, getting angry and getting upset. So it's a terrible way to be. it all starts, the foundation of this is that each side believes they're right. So, you know, I've talked to friends, I have friends obviously on both sides of the political aisle. And it always amazes me how the same topic will come up and each side will think the other side is outrageous and wrong and that they are right and that they...

hurting some of these feelings, or probably more importantly, getting angry and getting upset. So it's a terrible way to be, and it all starts, the foundation of this is that each side believes they're right. So I've talked to friends, I have friends obviously on both sides of the political aisle. And it always amazes me how the same topic will come up and each side will think the other side is outrageous and wrong and that they are right. That they have captured tomorrow high ground.

have captured demoral high ground. Both sides equally. It's quite amazing. you're in the middle and you're willing to listen to people, because if you're in the middle and you're willing to listen to people, then people will talk to you. If people think you're dug in on one side, they're unlikely to talk to you. So if you really want to get the feel for all sides of an issue, you have to be neutral in the sense that you have to, it doesn't mean you don't have to an opinion. You have to be accepting of the fact that others have a different opinion and it's valid from their point of view.

both sides equally. It's quite amazing. you're in the middle and you're willing to listen to people, if you're in the middle and you're willing to listen to people, then people will talk to you. If people think you're dug in on one side, they're unlikely to talk to you. So if you really want to get the feel for all sides of the issue, you have to be neutral in the sense that have to, it doesn't mean you don't have to an opinion, you have to be accepting of the fact that others have a different opinion and it's valid from their point of view. I like to say when you're sure you're on the moral high ground, that's when the

I like to say when you're sure you're on the moral high ground, that's when the bells should go off in your head. And you should go, uh-oh. Because so many times in history and in individual lives, we were sure that we were right, or countries were sure they were right, or leaders were sure they were right, or our neighbors were sure they or our siblings were sure they were right, or we were sure we were right. And guess what? We were wrong.

bell should go off in your head. And you should go, Because so many times in history and in individual lives, we were sure that we were right. Our countries were sure they were right. Our leaders were sure they were right. Our neighbors were sure our siblings were sure they were right. Or we were sure we were right. And guess what? We were wrong. Because 100 % of people have been wrong some significant percentage of the time.

because 100 % of people have been wrong some significant percentage of the time. So I don't care how good your batting average is, it is not 100%. It's not even close. So what should happen is when, in my view, is when you're so sure you're right, a good thing to do is to say, I have been wrong before. So perhaps this is another one of those times that I'm wrong. So when you're so fixated on being right,

So I don't care how good your batting average is, it is not 100%. It's not even close. So what should happen is when, in my view, is when you're so sure you're right, a good thing to do is to say, hmm, I have been wrong before. So perhaps this is another one of those times that I'm wrong. So when you're so fixated on being right, it is incredibly limiting. I'll give you a...

It is incredibly limiting. I give you a little story about something that's happened to me over the last few years, and then I'll stop talking so you can say something. Seems to be a problem with me. Anyway.

No, I'm listening. I'm gonna probably disagree with you, but keep going.

No, you're going to agree with this, I think, because it has to do what I just talked about, being open to hearing other opinions. So for years, I was. Enid (05:53.8) because it has to be what I just talked about, being able to hear each other's opinions. So for years I was quite dramatic in many of my...

quite dogmatic in many of my opinions. I remember being with my colleagues at work and I was in a very large medical group and we had differences of differences of opinion. Interestingly enough, I always thought it was like sibling rivalry. We were more like brothers and sisters fighting each other because at the end of the day, some external source or external threat came, we were all together because we did look after each other. But in the middle of these fights, they could be quite aggressive. And I was certainly

because at end of the day, if some external source or external threat came, we were all together. We did look after each other, but in the middle of these fights, they could be quite aggressive. And I was certainly one of the people who was often the most vociferous and most dogmatic. I wasn't aggressive, but most, I don't think I was, but most dogmatic about my opinions. And over time, I came to realize, having seen that I was wrong,

one of the people who was often the most vociferous and most dogmatic. I wasn't aggressive, but most, I don't think I was, but most dogmatic about my opinions. And over time, I came to realize, having seen that I was wrong a few times, more than a few times, that I needed to change my viewpoint on this.

that I needed to change my viewpoint on this. then something so interesting happened to me. I became much more interested in hearing other people's opinions than my own. And now I'm like voracious. So if somebody says, what do you think about this? What they're going to hear back to me is, no, I'm more interested in what you think about this. Because I'm quite malleable in the sense that when you spend a lot of time in the aerial view,

And then something so interesting happened to me. I became much more interested in hearing other people's opinions than my own. And now I'm like voracious. So if somebody says, what do you think about this? What they're going to hear back from me is, no, I'm more interested in what you think about this. Because I am quite malleable in the sense that when you spend a lot of time in the aerial view, you cannot be dogmatic because you see that

cannot be dogmatic because you see that A, you have been wrong many times, that the outcome of any event is always completely unpredictable. are probabilities of what will happen, but you can never be sure. And all this is very humbling. And that's, need humility to be able to hear other people's opinions. You have to get off that quote, moral high-grade that you think you occupy and understand that you might not.

A, you have been wrong many times that the outcome of any event is always completely unpredictable. There are probabilities of what will happen, but you can never be sure. And all this is very humbling. And that's, need humility to be able to hear other people's opinions. You have to get off that quote, moral high ground that you think you occupy and understand that you might not. And you could be wrong. And once that happens, Enid (07:37.8) you could be wrong. Once that happens, at least what happened to me is I got very interested in hearing other people's opinions. I think I talked about you when I mentioned this, I think. But the analogy I use is like, I always went to the ice cream shop and got chocolate ice cream all the time, because it's my favorite. But now it's like I want to try every flavor. I want to hear everybody's opinion. I get into an Uber, I want to hear their opinion. When I was in Europe recently a couple of times,

At least what happened to me is I got very interested in hearing other people's opinions. I think I talk about you when I have mentioned this, I think. But the analogy I use is like, I was running to the ice cream shop and got chocolate ice cream all the time because it's my favorite. But now it's like I want to try every flavor, right? Because I want to hear everybody's opinion. I get into an Uber, I want to hear their opinion. When I was in Europe recently a couple of times, the first thing anybody would say to me as soon as they recognized I was an American was, What do you think of what's going on in your country? What do you think of Donald Trump? Really was the real question. And I would say, and these are young, a lot of them are very young people doing some type of job that I happen to interact with them where they were driving a car or working at some facility or so on. I, as the tourist was interacting with them in some way. And before

I as the tourist was interacting with them in some way, before whatever interaction we had was about to begin, they would go right to that initial question. What do you think about what's going on in your country, do you think about Donald Trump? And I'd always say the same thing. What do you think? And this happened in probably about five or six different countries. Different age people actually, not all young people, people of all ages. And I thought it was fascinating. And then eventually they'd want to know what I thought. And I would.

whatever interaction we had was about to begin, they would go right to that initial question. What do you think about what's going on in your country? do you think about Donald Trump? And I know we say the same thing. What do you think? And this happened in probably five or six different countries, different age people, actually, not all young people, people of all ages. And I thought it was fascinating. And then eventually they'd want to know what I thought. And I would generally kind of in a very gentle way avoid that because That really wasn't my purpose. My purpose was really to gather information and hear what other people thought. Because if you do that, unless you're the most rigid person in the world, it should affect your own thinking, at least to open your mind to other possibilities.

Well, then the question is, so, couple things. Can you ever... As a physician, okay, one would hope, please, that you make right decisions, and I'm sure you did all the time. Some of them, because yours is a life and death profession, there's no question about that. But the question of right and wrong, and wanting to hear other people's opinions, I get all that, I really do. But do you ever think to yourself, when they've given you their opinion, do you ever say to yourself, oh God, he's wrong, but I don't want to tell him.

you

Or would you ever say that out loud? Gee, I don't agree with you. I'm not saying you're wrong. I might not agree with you. Is there a difference?

Well, I think that the first thing that you have to acknowledge that, see, I'll give you an example. Nowadays, when you have a political discussion with somebody, and I know how you feel, I know where you are in politics, and you're a very kind and generous person, so that makes it a little better for you. But still, people who have a very firm opinion, when they get into a conversation about politics, they're starting off by the premise that they are right.

So that makes it a little better for you, but still people who have a very firm opinion when they get into a conversation about politics, they're starting off by the premise that they are right and they're either going to try and convince the other person or they might tolerate the other person, but they're pretty sure they're right. And what I'm saying is something different that you could easily be wrong. So let's talk about something, let's just talk about a concrete example. You know, happened to, in addition to medical school, ended up

and they're either going to try and convince the other person or they might tolerate the other person, but they're pretty sure they're right. And what I'm saying is something different that you could easily be wrong. So let's talk about something. Let's just talk about a concrete example. you know, happened to, in addition to medical school, I ended up at some point getting an MBA because I was interested in learning about business. knew nothing about business. So I was on the faculty of George Washington University Medical Center and I was able to Well, they made me matriculate in a program actually, just to take a couple of courses. So I did, and I was just going to take a couple of business courses, so I knew something, accounting, few very simple stuff. And then because they made me matriculate in this degree program, I ended up matriculating in the MBA program. And over six years, I'm not making that up. Once a week, I'd march down the street, go to the business school, take a course. It took six years, because in the meantime, I had three kids and...

program ended up in the MBA program and over six years I'm not making it up. Once a week I'd march down the street, go to the business school, take a course. It took six years because in meantime I had three kids and I had a full-time job and I was doing this at night. I wasn't in a hurry. Okay.

I had a full-time job and I was doing this at night and I wasn't in a hurry. So, when I learned the business school, we remember talking economics, I remember talking about tariffs, right? So, here's what I remember about tariffs. Bad. Tariffs bad, distort markets, raise prices, cause inflation, blah, blah. Okay. So, well, so we're actually recording this probably several weeks before it actually airs. So, anyway.

So what I learned at business school, in economics, I've never talked about tariffs. So here's what I remember about tariffs. Tariffs bad, historic markets raise prices, cause inflation, blah, blah, blah. Good. Let's look at the stock market right now, which is crashing.

So anyway, in his.

In his talking about the fact that the president discussed tariffs yesterday. so what's my reaction now? My reaction now is, okay, I know what I've learned, but I know what I don't know. And let's see what happens. So I'm not, I don't take a firm side as much as I used to because I recognize my frailty in terms of my intellectual abilities and also the fact that nothing can be known with certainty. We live in a quantum world. As much as you think you can predict the outcome, you cannot.

you think you can predict the outcome, cannot. You can only assign a probability. And the probability is never zero, never. So there is some chance that this could work. I don't know. Maybe it's 10%. Maybe it's 50%. I have no idea. The point is that when you are in the aerial view and you've seen what's happened and you see, in a sense, all of time and you have this openness to all probabilities, because you know all probabilities can occur.

you can only assign a probability and the probability is never zero, never. So there is some chance that this could work. I don't know, maybe it's 10%, maybe it's 50%. I have no idea. The point is that when you are in the aerial view and you've seen what's happened and you see, in a sense, all of time and you have this openness to all probabilities, because you know all probabilities can occur, then you're less dogmatic. So in this case, I go, okay, what I learned says bad.

then you're less dogmatic. So in this case, I go, okay, what I learned says bad. Let's see what happens. That's the difference, Instead of saying, here's the thing, people say, well, you're not an economist. That's true. I have degree and I have an MBA, but I'm not an economist. But there are a lot of economists who've been wrong a thousand times, right? You said, you're a doctor. I hope you're right all the time. Sorry, nobody is. Right, right. That's why I don't go to you.

But let's see what happens. That's the difference, right? Instead of saying, here's the thing, people say, well, you're not an economist. That's true. I have degree and I have an MBA, but I'm not an economist. But there are a lot of economists who have been wrong a thousand times, right? You said, well, you're a doctor. I hope you're right all the time. Sorry, nobody is. No doctor is right all the time.

I want somebody who's going to tell me the truth. Right, right, right. What do mean it's my gallbladder? I thought it was my knee. I came from my knee. Go ahead. Yeah.

No, want somebody who's always going to be right. Good luck, right? So luckily, I've been right far, far, far, far, far more times than I was wrong, but I will tell you, I've been wrong. And once you've been wrong enough times in your life, it doesn't have to be in medicine and anything, you should have a certain sense of humility about it. in this conversation about economics and tariffs, again, I'm not an economist, but I know that when I listen to economists, they're not all

Sure sure Sure

homogeneous and that some are going to be wrong because they're always wrong. Some are always wrong about everything. So here's the question. Here's the real question I want to get to now, which is why is it so hard for people to say or to think I could be wrong? Why is that? It's very interesting. You want to take a shot at it and then I'll tell you what I think.

I don't know. I guess, you know, in many respects, we don't ever want to be wrong. That's correct. There's no question. Because you don't want anybody to think you're dumb or that you're foolish or that you're silly. You don't want to look bad to other people. Maybe it's the way we, the perception of how we feel people perceive us. I remember growing up thinking, I was not the smartest kid in the class, as you know. And that was an embarrassment growing up. But... because I never, I was terrible at math, I still am, I still count on my fingers. You don't want people to think you're stupid. And if you think, if you equate stupidity with being wrong, you don't want to be wrong. That's me, that's how I feel. I don't want to be wrong, people don't think I'm stupid.

But you have been wrong.

You bet, more times than I've been. Well, but again, to who? To who? Who was I wrong? What was I wrong about? Who decided I was wrong? mean, obviously if I took a test and I had the wrong answer, I was wrong. But see, to me there are levels of right and wrong. And I'll bring it back if I could, let's talk about during, let's talk about World War II, let's talk about the Holocaust. Was there a wrong and right there? Of course there were.

You

Victor Frankl taught us that, didn't he? We didn't need his teaching to teach us that, but there was a right and wrong there. Probabilistic or not, there was a right and wrong, wasn't there?

Yeah. So what you're alluding to is that we've already decided that how you treat people, there are some absolutes. That's why we talked about the Ten Commandments, I think, recently, that there are certain things that are just wrong. And some of us accept that they are divine, some don't. But like, thou shalt not kill, pretty clear. But we're talking about something a little different. We're talking about opinions on things that are not necessarily life threatening, which is most things.

We've already decided how you treat people. Yes. Okay.

Getting back to the question I just asked you is, why is it so hard for people to admit they're wrong? And here's what I think. I think that some of us are very, very fragile. We're just not comfortable enough on our own skin. We just don't have, we talked about previously about how we want to have our legs encased in concrete so that if a wind blows, we're not going over.

I think that some of us are very, very fragile. We're just not comfortable enough on our own skin. We just don't have, we talked about previously about how we want to have our legs encased in concrete so that if a wind blows, we're not going over. And how some people live or exist as if they're balanced on a single stone. They're so uncertain about who they are and what they stand for and what their capabilities are that if a stiff wind comes over, boom, they're blown off that single stone.

and how some people are live as or exist as if they're balanced on a single stone. They're so uncertain about who they are and what they stand for and what their capabilities are that a stiff wind comes over, boom, they're blown off that single stone. Being right is like that because if you're cemented, if your legs are cemented in stone, you have that firm foundation that a wind, a breeze is not going to knock you over. Then when you find out you're wrong, which all of us do at some point,

Being right is like that. Because if your legs are cemented in stone, you have that firm foundation that a wind, a breeze is not gonna knock you over, then when you find out you're wrong, which all of us do at some point, then you don't fall over. You go, you might bend a little bit, but you go, okay, I was wrong about that one. Let lesson learn. And we're able to grow from it and learn and so on.

then you don't fall over. You go, you might bend a little bit, but you go, okay, I was wrong about that one, lesson learned, and we're able to grow from it and learn and so on. But if your entire being is so fragile that the littlest thing can knock you over, then if you think you're right and you must insist that you're right, because if you're wrong about this, you might think, perhaps I'm wrong about everything. And perhaps,

But if your entire being is so fragile that the littlest thing can knock you over, then if you think you're right and you must insist that you're right, because if you're wrong about this, you might think, perhaps I'm wrong about everything. And perhaps I'm not worthwhile. I don't have no value. A lot of people think that. And it's a sad way to be. one of the things that we're trying to do in this podcast is explain why that's a...

I'm not worthwhile. I'm not worth. I don't have no value. And a lot of people think that and it's a sad way to be. we know one of the things is we're trying to do in this podcast is explain why that's that's an unnecessary way to think that each of us has the ability to complete our mission that nobody is uniquely un-gifted. Everybody can get good at something. That's true. Everybody can get good at something. Nobody's uniquely un-gifted. And so by creating that persona we've talked about previously that is

That's an unnecessary way to think that each of us has the ability to complete our mission that nobody is uniquely un-gifted. Everybody can get good at something. That's true. Everybody can get good at something. Nobody's uniquely un-gifted. And so by creating that persona we've talked about previously that is set in cement and has a firm foundation, then it's very easy to be wrong, to admit you're wrong, and in fact, you can laugh about it, right? So you know?

that is set in cement and has a firm foundation, then it's very easy to be wrong, to admit you're wrong. And in fact, you can laugh about it, right? Say, you know, I was so sure about that, but guess what? I was wrong. Oops. You know, I don't crumble. I'm not going to go hide in the bathroom. I'm just going to say, okay, I got this one wrong. And I need to think next time, maybe I should be a little less dogmatic. That might be helpful.

I was so sure about that, but guess what? I was wrong. Oops. I don't crumble. I'm not going to go hide in the bathrooms. I'm just going to say, okay, I got this one wrong. And I need to think next time, maybe I should be a little less pragmatic, if that might be helpful. And that's how we build the persona we need to complete our mission, to move forward in our lives. Have that definition. Yeah, it leads me to think, and I mean, I hate to bring it back to this, but I think it does equate to this.

And that's how we build the persona we need to complete our mission, to move forward in our life, to have that evolution that we talk about.

We've got 535 people, not far from where I'm sitting right now on Capitol Hill, who think they're right all the time. And that's members of Congress. And I think that, may be the problem up there, that they are very loathe to admit maybe they're wrong. Their opinion is always right. They know what they're doing. But the problem, as I see it with them, is that they are supposed to represent us. So if what they think is right is not what I think is right, and they will never acquiesce to even a larger opinion, therein may lie the problem. So maybe what we need to do is take your book, go up to the Hill and say, you got to read this because being right is overrated, Congressman X, Senator Y. I mean, wouldn't you sort of think about that, that they think that they're always right.

Well, I think the reason they do that is because if they say they're wrong, they're going to look weak and their opponents are going to attack them and they might get primaried. And it's a terrible system. But here's the problem. What's your goal? So a congressman or congresswoman's, congressperson, I guess what you say, a congressperson goal, if your goal is to continually get reelected, then you're going to...

say they're wrong, they're going to look weak, and your opponents are going to attack them, and they might get primaries. Right, and there's your point. Yeah. here's the problem. What's your goal? So a congressman,

Goal is to continually get real. Right. Then you're going to do everything you can to make sure you don't look weak. Never admit you're wrong. so on because you're afraid if you do that, they'll jump on you. Somebody will jump on you. This person admitted he or she is weak, but they were wrong. that's the problem with that is that they have the wrong goal. We don't want people in Congress who feel that way. This is why I personally think we absolutely have have to terminal. But because you can't you have to take these

Do everything you can to make sure you don't look weak, you never admit you're wrong, and so on. Because you're afraid if you do that, they'll jump on you. Somebody will jump on you, ha, this person admitted he or she is weak or they were wrong. But the problem with that is that they have the wrong goal, right? We don't want people in Congress who feel that way, which is why personally I think we absolutely have to have term limits. because you have to take the pressure off these people.

you have to take the pressure off these people. have to let them, because most of them are good people. I think the vast majority are probably good people. Maybe all of them are good people, I don't know. Certainly I'm going give them the benefit of the doubt. But if their goal is to continually get re-elected, then they're going to have to take a stance that shows no weakness, dogmatic about everything, and that's not in the best interest of the public. What you want people to do, you want people up there to go, okay, I'm coming for a 246 agent.

You have to let them, because most of are good people. I think the vast majority are probably good people. Maybe all of them are good people. I don't know. Certainly, I'm going give them the better of the doubt. But if their goal is to continually get re-elected, then they're going to have to take a stance that shows no weakness, dogmatic about everything. And that's not in the best interest of the public. What you want people to do, you want people up there who go, OK, I'm coming for two, four, six, eight years, whatever it is, some limited number of years, and I'm to do what I think is right. And if I take a stand,

And I'm going to do what I think is right. And if I take a stand and I tend to do what I think is right, and it turns out I was wrong, then the people can decide. And then if they decide they want somebody else, that's fine. But I have to do what I think is in the best interest of my constituents in the country, understanding that I'm going to get some wrong. But how refreshing would that be? Right? Yeah. Because they're all going to be wrong. 100 % of them, all those 535 people, everybody in the cabinet, the president, the vice president.

and to do what I think is right. And it turns out I was wrong, then the people can decide. And then if they decide to want somebody else, that's fine. But I have to do what I think is in the best interest of my constituents in the country, understanding that I'm going to get some wrong. How refreshing would that be? Right? Because they're all going to be wrong. 100 % of them, all those 535 people, everybody in the cabinet, the president, the vice president, Supreme Court justices.

Supreme Court justices, every single one of them has been wrong and will be wrong again. And it's very unhealthy for a country and a community to have people who are so set in their ways that they will not entertain the concept that they could be wrong even though they know they have been. This is not in the best interest of moving a society forward. And I think we've created a political system where from the day these people are elected, they're raising money, they gotta take these very firm.

Every single one of them has been wrong and will be wrong again. And it's very unhealthy for a country and a community to have people who are so set in their ways that they will not entertain the concept they could be wrong, even though they know they have been. This is not in the best interest of moving a society forward. And I think we've created a political system where from the day these people are elected, they're raising money, they got to take these very firm, aggressive stances.

aggressive stances. an interesting thing is that our primary system, you and I were growing up primaries and not what they are today. But in order to win a primary, you have to be on one extreme, not maybe the extreme, but certainly on the edge of one side of the other because

An interesting thing is that our primary system, and you and I were growing up, primaries are not what they are today. But in order to win a primary, you have to be on one extreme, not maybe the extreme, but certainly on the edge of one side or the other, because only about 10 % of people in each party vote in a primary, some small number like that. And those are the people who are the most extreme. They're the ones who are panning the pavement and carrying the signs and yelling and screaming. And you have to...

only about 10 % of people in each party vote, right, in a primary, some small number like that. And those are the people who are the most extreme, right, they're the ones who have panned in the pavement and carrying the signs and yelling and screaming. And you have to, you have to appeal to those people, you won't even get the nomination for the ability to run for whatever office it is, doesn't have to be a high office, a state representative, whatever, you have to appeal to these people.

appeal to those people, you won't even get the nomination for or the ability to run for whatever office it is. It doesn't have to be a high office, but even a state representative, whatever, you have to appeal to these people. That is a terrible system, right? Because then you can never admit you're wrong. You have to be extremely dogmatic. It's just not healthy. So, but getting back to this whole idea is that

that is a terrible system, right? Because then you can never admit you're wrong. You have to be extremely dogmatic. It's just not healthy. So, getting back to this whole idea is that the reason you want to be humble, the reason humility is so important, the reason that being right is overrated is because it prevents you, opening your mind prevents you from seeing the world in a way that will allow you to make the evolution from selfish to selfless. And with that, we're focused.

The reason you want to be humble, the reason humility is so important, the reason that being right is overrated is because it prevents you, opening your mind prevents you from seeing the world in a way that will allow you to make the evolution from selfish to selfless, from inward to outward focus. When you are stuck on that moral high ground, you have a limited vision. What you want is the wide field of view that you get from the aerial view. And in the aerial view, it is clear that everybody makes mistakes.

When you are stuck on that moral high ground, you have a limited vision. What you want is the wide field of view that you get from the aerial view. And in the aerial view, it is clear that everybody makes mistakes, that the world, the history of the world is a history of errors. We're gonna talk about errors in another podcast. That's very interesting. But that's the story of the world. So you have to be able to say, have been wrong before, I will be wrong again, I might be wrong on this particular issue, but I'm confident that my...

that the world, the history of the world is a history of errors. We're gonna talk about errors in another podcast. That's very interesting to me. But that's the story of the world. So you have to be able to say, I have been wrong before, I will be wrong again, I might be wrong on this particular issue, but I'm confident that my rightness or wrongness does not, or let's put it this way, my success as a human being.

My rightness or wrongness does not, or let's put it this way, my success as a human being is not dependent on me being right or wrong every time. I know that I'm gonna be wrong, but I'm firm enough in my development that I can bend with being wrong. I know this gets me all the time, and it's not gonna topple me, it's not gonna make me super anxious, it's not gonna ruin my life. So tell me this, so you said when you were in your medical practice, you all of sudden had, I guess,

is not dependent on me being right or wrong every time. I know that I'm be wrong, but I'm firm enough in my development that I can bend with being wrong. I know there's gonna be moments I'm wrong, and it's not gonna topple me. It's not gonna make me super anxious. It's not gonna ruin my life.

aha moment, and it came to you no longer being dogmatic, no longer being as opinionated, no longer thinking you're always right. What was that magic thing that brought you from the street view, which is where we were, where we are, to the aerial view to get you to the point where you think that being right is overrated, you, in fact, your opinion was important, but that you really wanted to listen to other people first. What got you there?

Well, if any of my colleagues are listening, they're probably laughing and rolling off their chairs because it took me too long. And I've said this many times, you know, it took me a long time to understand the aerial view and how the world really works. so all the time before that, you know, I wasn't, you know, I was never intentionally mean or hurtful, but

said this many times, you know, it took me a long time to understand the aerial view.

Like I said, I was forceful and often dogmatic about a position. I didn't really understand how the world worked. So I would say it wasn't an aha moment. wasn't the flashing lights and the thunder and that didn't happen. was all the studying and reflection I've done over the course of many years.

didn't really understand how the world works. So I would say it wasn't an aha moment. wasn't flashing lights and the thunder and that didn't happen. was all the studying and reflection I've done over the course of many years eventually brought me to the realization of how the world works, that the aerial view exists, the perspective it gives you to see all these things in a much clearer manner. And then it's more of a sigh, meaning.

eventually brought me to the realization of how the world works, that the aerial view exists, the perspective it gives you to see all these things in a much clearer manner. And then it was more of a sigh, meaning, Mark, you've been such a dope. You've been such a dope. Maybe I'm a little hard on myself because I do recognize that life is progression and evolution, but

So, you know, maybe I'm a little hard on myself because I do recognize. and evolution, but I probably should have gotten it a lot sooner. And I told you about some of my friends who I talked about in this podcast who have gotten it a lot sooner. So I'm not, I wasn't the of the pack. was probably towards the latter part of the pack. unless you stop and reflect and understand what the aerial view is and have a good

I probably should have gotten it a lot sooner. And I've told you about some of my friends who I've talked about in this podcast who have gotten it a lot sooner. So I'm not, I wasn't the head of the pack. was probably towards the latter part of the pack. But unless you stop and reflect and understand what the aerial view is and how the world really works, the things we've already talked about, we'll continue to talk about, you're going to insist that you're right and that your position is the correct one.

you're going to insist that you're right and that your position is the correct one. It's going to limit your ability to have relationships. That's very important relationships on the single most important concept in terms of personal development. Relationships are almost everything. And if you're dogmatic and you won't listen to other people's opinions and you can't listen to other people's opinions, then you're going to limit the number of relationships you can actually have in your life.

It's going to limit your ability to have relationships. That's very important. Relationships are the single most important concept in terms of personal development. Relationships are almost everything. And if you're dogmatic and you won't listen to other people's opinions and you can't listen to other people's opinions, then you're going to be, you're going to limit the number of relationships you can actually have in your life. So that's another reason you don't want to be so dogmatic. It's just a much healthier way to be. And I'll tell you something else. It's a much more pleasant way to live.

So that's another reason you don't want to be so dogmatic. It's just a much healthier way to be. And I'll tell you something else. It's a much more pleasant way to live. Yeah, sure. Right. So I can listen to you and my other friends who are on the left of this topic. I five minutes I can call one of my friends in Texas or somewhere like that. He's on the right side. And I love talking to all of you. And I don't get upset. And I and I've had many of you tell me that I'm blind, naive. markekleinmd (26:17.8) Right? So I can listen to you and my other friends who are on the left of this topic. five minutes I can call one of my friends in Texas or somewhere like that. He's on the right side. And I love talking to all of you. And I don't get upset. I've had many of you tell me that I'm blind, naive, foolish. And it just makes me smile. I don't get upset. I love you all. But I see things in a different way. And it's a much

Yeah, yeah, No, it's, yes, it is, it's outrageous.

more peaceful, tranquil, healthy way to live. And it happens to be a more accurate way because you have been wrong before and you will be wrong again. so on any single decision, you have to stop and think, hmm, maybe I'm wrong, which is why, you know, burning Teslas, right? Or these kinds of things are ridiculous. You know, it's not only wrong, but it's that you're making an assumption that you have the market cornered on truth. Believe me, you don't.

Yeah, no, I agree with that. I know I would not own one, but yes, because I, yeah. But no, I agree. I don't think violence is the way to do it. And I think that, I guess the reason that I brought up the article about leadership is because I keep thinking that perhaps maybe our leaders such as they are, and I think maybe everybody has the ability to be a leader. And I think it's important. I actually had lunch over the weekend with a...

You

dear friend of ours from high school. And we talked about this whole notion of leadership. His idea of leadership and my idea of leadership are totally different. And I enjoyed listening to his view of leadership. And again, I thought about this on my way home after I left at lunch thinking, is he right? Am I wrong? I don't know. Even something as simple as leadership. And I thought, well, maybe being right is overrated. Of course, I knew I was right. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Because we're trying to be tranquil here. No, I think you're right. think that being right is overrated. But I think it's also question of who makes that decision of what is right and what is wrong. But that's the whole point. Right.

No, but that's the whole point in it, that it's very difficult sometimes to know. Don't kill somebody, that's easy. But most things are not killing somebody. Most things are a lot more nuanced. And so politics is a great example of that. So I'll give you an example. You and I want the same exact things for people. We want people to be healthy and have food to eat and a place to live and be able to pay their bills and educate their children and live in safe communities. There's probably not a...

don't kill somebody. That's wrong. That's right. Of course, of course. But most things are not killing somebody. Most things are a lot more nuanced. Yes. Yes. So politics is a great example of that. So I'll give you an example. You and I want the same exact thing for people. We want people to be healthy and have food to eat, place to live, and be able to pay their bills and educate their children and live in certain communities. There's probably not a natural worth of difference between what we want. Right? And I would say that's true for most

a net worth of difference between what we want. And I would say that's true for most people in this country. The question is, what's the best way to get there? You want to take the left fork, somebody else might want to take the right fork. Okay, but it's not absolute. It's probably neither one of those is going to be absolute. Sometimes the people on the left are going to be right and sometimes they're going to be wrong.

most people in this country. The question is what's the best way to get there? You want to take the left fork, somebody else might want to take the right fork. Okay, but it's not absolute, right? It's probably neither one of those is going to be absolute. Sometimes the people on the left are going to be right and sometimes they're going to be wrong. Sometimes the people on right are going to be correct and sometimes they're going to be wrong. It's just the way the world works. And you need that humility to say, once you get that, then you go, all right, I see it. Okay, now I'm willing to listen to you and I don't hate you.

And sometimes people are right, they're be correct, and sometimes they're gonna be wrong. And that's just the way the world works. And you need that humility to say, okay, once you get that, then you go, all right, I see it, okay, now I'm willing to listen to you and I don't hate you. And you don't say things like every Democrat is a horrible human being or every person who voted for Trump is a horrible human being. You get away from those things because you realize they're so, they cannot possibly be true. They by definition wrong. That's not how the world works.

And you don't say things like every Democrat is a horrible human being or every person who voted for Trump is a horrible human being. You get away from those things because you realize they're so, they cannot possibly be true. They by definition wrong. That's not how the world works. There's always gonna be a mixture. It's gonna be nuanced. Sometimes you'll be right, sometimes you'll be wrong. That's true of 100 % of people. So that humility is so important and it allows you to then.

There's always gonna be a mixture. It's gonna be nuanced. Sometimes you'll be right, sometimes you'll be wrong. That's true of 100 % of people. So that humility is so important and it allows you to then move forward in your life in a much more positive, tranquil, pleasant way. People aren't enemies. They become friends. They become people you can learn from. It's a totally different perspective. So if I disagree with somebody initially and they present something to me, hey, I may not agree with them, but I go, I don't hate you. I see your point.

move forward in your life in a much more positive, tranquil, pleasant way. People aren't enemies. They become friends. They become people you can learn from. It's a totally different perspective. So if I disagree with somebody initially and they present something to me, hey, I may not agree with them, but I go, I don't hate you. I see your point. I get it. I get where you're coming from. No, I like it. I like it a lot. In fact, I like it a lot. I look at the clock and I see we're out of time.

I get it, I get where you're coming from.

And that's too bad, because you know, we could just yap all day. But let me end today's podcast with, as I usually do, from your own book. Your book is called Wisdom from the Area of You. And you say, how do we break down the barriers that prevent us from entertaining alternative theories to the ones we firmly embrace? We have seen that there is no guarantee that any choice we make or any team we join is the right one.

How did that happen?

No matter how strongly you are convinced that your position is right, that confidence is not supported by what we know about how the world works, there is always the possibility that you could be wrong, that your team is wrong, that knowledge should liberate you. Thank you for liberating us. Thank you for telling us that maybe it is, being right is overrated. Tell us where people can write to you and tell us what they want to hear about. What's the, what's the?

If you'd like, Enid and I to address a question or you have something you want to talk about or comment, can email us at question at wisdomfromtheaerialview.com. That's all one word. Question at wisdomfromtheaerialview.com. We look forward to your questions and comments. And Enid, thank you for another wonderful discussion and I wish you a wonderful day. I appreciate you too. Bye.

Email.

Thank you, Mark, I appreciate it. And I appreciate you, you too. Peace.